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Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

 
 
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2020 03:44 pm
Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

If so, then he could not be the perfect sacrifice.

If not, then he had no human side and was pure god, and god cannot die which, makes the sacrifice a lie.

Could these facts be why the Jews have no Original Sin concept in their religion?

Is that also why Jews rejected Jesus as their messiah, or did they just recognize the immorality of anyone using a scapegoat and the abdication of one’s responsibility for their actions, which is against all moral legal systems?

Why have Christians embraced such an immoral and illegal concept?

Regards
DL
 
auroreII
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 11:53 am
@Greatest I am,
you said :" Was Jesus born with Original Sin?...If not, then he had no human side and was pure god, and god cannot die which, makes the sacrifice a lie."
The bible says Jesus gave up his exalted position in heaven to become as one of us.
Do you believe Adam and Eve were sinless before they chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 12:12 pm
You haven't as yet established that he was born.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 03:49 pm
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:

you said :" Was Jesus born with Original Sin?...If not, then he had no human side and was pure god, and god cannot die which, makes the sacrifice a lie."
The bible says Jesus gave up his exalted position in heaven to become as one of us.
Do you believe Adam and Eve were sinless before they chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?




Jesus was chosen and did not volunteer the way you seem to think he did.

Stick to what scriptures say.

I do not believe the myth, but scriptures show A & E to be sinless as at no time does it show them doing anything with an evil mind or intent.

They could not sin till after they knew what evil was and that required them to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 03:51 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

You haven't as yet established that he was born.


I cannot. given that he is just a character in a myth.

The thing about this myth is that literalist fools think it is history.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 10:37 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

If so, then he could not be the perfect sacrifice.

If not, then he had no human side and was pure god, and god cannot die which, makes the sacrifice a lie.

Born of a virgin's womb thus free of original sin.

Taught that we have to die to the flesh/sin and be reborn of spirit to enter the kingdom of Heaven; then died on the cross, spent three days in the grave, and rose on Easter; spent 40 more days on Earth before ascending to Heaven, told Mary,
Quote:

John 20
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 10:43 pm
Seems that one third of the god head IE the holy ghost did the honor of knocking up Mary Jesus could not be born in sin.
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2020 11:13 am
@Greatest I am,
The scripture says

John 15:13 King James Version (KJV) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Matthew 26::53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

He is saying he only had to pray and God would send his angels to deliver him from his enemies, but Jesus wasn't in this for himself. He chose to lay down his life for others. - He gave his life in exchange so all those who believed in him could have everlasting life. Because Christ was sinless he did not deserve to die. He was raised from the dead. He didn't deserve to die. Justice would say that he was owed something for what he unjustly suffered. Revenge? No, he chose us. He chose us when he chose to go to the cross. Being sinners we die for our sins, but Jesus gave his life in exchange for ours so we can be raised with him in newness of life. That is the message of Easter.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2020 11:32 am

Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:55 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:



Born of a virgin's womb thus free of original sin.

[/quote]

That is your imagination. Get any biblical quote that shows that exception.

Good luck finding any.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:02 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Seems that one third of the god head IE the holy ghost did the honor of knocking up Mary Jesus could not be born in sin.


Spirits do not have sperm.

If you are a literalist, you are stuck with the reality that Yahweh, being an androgynous god, and using Mary, after he coveted her and cuckolded Joseph and then becoming a deadbeat dad, would have Mary producing a Jesus that was biologically female all of his life. It is the same with all partheno-genetic birth.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:05 am
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:

The scripture says

John 15:13 King James Version (KJV) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Matthew 26::53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

He is saying he only had to pray and God would send his angels to deliver him from his enemies, but Jesus wasn't in this for himself. He chose to lay down his life for others. - He gave his life in exchange so all those who believed in him could have everlasting life. Because Christ was sinless he did not deserve to die. He was raised from the dead. He didn't deserve to die. Justice would say that he was owed something for what he unjustly suffered. Revenge? No, he chose us. He chose us when he chose to go to the cross. Being sinners we die for our sins, but Jesus gave his life in exchange for ours so we can be raised with him in newness of life. That is the message of Easter.



Yes. A disgusting and immoral message. If you wish to discuss the immorality of your belief, I am here for you.

Most Christians do not care about their selling their moral soul to Satan.

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards
DL


Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:09 am
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:


John 15:13 King James Version (KJV) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.



Greater love hath no father than this, that a man lay down his life for his son, instead of having him die for a condition unnecessarily created by the Father.

Would you be as immoral as your vile god or would you do the right thing and step up yourself?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:14 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjRy29R4gP8

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:19 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Born of a virgin's womb thus free of original sin.

That is your imagination. Get any biblical quote that shows that exception.

Good luck finding any.

There is a lot about paternal lineage in the story of Jesus. He was born of a virgin and his message was denied based on a lack of faith that he could be connected with God if not a descendant of Abraham:
Quote:

37I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

46Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John 8

Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:31 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Born of a virgin's womb thus free of original sin.

That is your imagination. Get any biblical quote that shows that exception.

Good luck finding any.

There is a lot about paternal lineage in the story of Jesus. He was born of a virgin and his message was denied based on a lack of faith that he could be connected with God if not a descendant of Abraham:
Quote:

37I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

46Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John 8




I knew you had nothing to show, but thanks for showing that you knew that the father of Jesus was supposed to be of a human line and thus disqualify Jesus as the promised messiah.

Yahweh is not of Abrahams line, and neither is Jesus if fathered by anyone else.

Yahweh is not Jesus' deadbeat dad. If not Joseph's son, some other man is.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:49 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

I knew you had nothing to show, but thanks for showing that you knew that the father of Jesus was supposed to be of a human line and thus disqualify Jesus as the promised messiah.

Yahweh is not of Abrahams line, and neither is Jesus if fathered by anyone else.

Yahweh is not Jesus' deadbeat dad. If not Joseph's son, some other man is.

What do you say to this part of the book of Luke, then? That it was just a lie? If so, who do you say lied? Mary? You think it was just her way of covering up a rape or some affair she had while she was engaged to Joseph? If that were true, why wouldn't Joseph have divorced her as it says he planned to? What motive would he have to stay with her and marry her except what the scripture says, that an angel of the Lord came to him in a dream?

Is your POV to agree with those who accused Jesus of being illegitimate and not a child of Abraham and thus a sinner and thus incapable of preaching Holy Truth? If so, it sounds like you resonate with the people in John 8 quoted at the bottom of this post.
Quote:

Luke 1:26-38 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
The Angel Gabriel Comes to Mary

26 Six months after Elizabeth had become pregnant, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a city in Galilee. 27 The angel went to a virgin promised in marriage to a descendant of David named Joseph. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28 When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, “You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you.”

29 She was startled by what the angel said and tried to figure out what this greeting meant.

30 The angel told her,

“Don’t be afraid, Mary. You have found favor[a] with God.
31
You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
and name him Jesus.
32
He will be a great man
and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
the throne of his ancestor David.
33
Your son will be king of Jacob’s people forever,
and his kingdom will never end.”

34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this be? I’m a virgin.”

35 The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come to you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy child developing inside you will be called the Son of God.


Quote:
The Birth of Jesus
(Isaiah 7:10-16; Luke 2:1-7)

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus,d because He will save His people from their sins.”


22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

23“Behold, the virgin will be with child

and will give birth to a son,

and they will call Him Immanuel”e

(which means, “God with us”f ).

24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife. 25But he had no union with herg until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Quote:

John 8
37I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:55 am
@livinglava,
What fiction will people buy into. Of course for over a thousand year not buying into the Virgin birth of Mary openly would likely get you burn at the stake.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:59 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

What fiction will people buy into. Of course for over a thousand year not buying into the Virgin birth of Mary openly would likely get you burn at the stake.

It sounds like not believing is causing you to burn with rage even now, when no one gets physically burned in any way for not believing.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 12:41 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

BillRM wrote:

What fiction will people buy into. Of course for over a thousand year not buying into the Virgin birth of Mary openly would likely get you burn at the stake.

It sounds like not believing is causing you to burn with rage even now, when no one gets physically burned in any way for not believing.


No one is getting burn now by Christians at least at this moment repeat the moment in history of over 2000 years.

That however give no guarantees for the future with special note that in my life time two branches of Christianity was killing and torturing each other.
 

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