Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

I find it really hard to even come up with an Original sin these days.

When I think up a new sin that I believe to be original... I usually find that there is already a website dedicated to it.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

livinglava wrote:

BillRM wrote:

What fiction will people buy into. Of course for over a thousand year not buying into the Virgin birth of Mary openly would likely get you burn at the stake.

It sounds like not believing is causing you to burn with rage even now, when no one gets physically burned in any way for not believing.

No one is getting burn now by Christians at least at this moment repeat the moment in history of over 2000 years.

That however give no guarantees for the future with special note that in my life time two branches of Christianity was killing and torturing each other.

Christians are also still being persecuted today, just as they were during Roman times, albeit more subtly.

Face it, there is a culture of bullying/fascism that started before religion (look at Chimpanzees, for example); and bullying/fascism can organize itself around any flag or set of religious beliefs.

You can have the philosophy of nothing-but-peace-for-everyone and some people will come up with a way to accuse others of defying the philosophy and making war with them for opposing peace.

Christianity is about embracing and forgiving sinners in order to save them from sin. Read John 9, the entire passage. It tells of not just the miracle of giving a blind man sight, but more specifically about how he was rejected as a sinner by the religious authorities, who also rejected Jesus:

Quote:

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

6 After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

8 His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, “Isn’t this the same man who used to sit and beg?” 9 Some claimed that he was.

Others said, “No, he only looks like him.”

But he himself insisted, “I am the man.”

10 “How then were your eyes opened?” they asked.

11 He replied, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see.”

12 “Where is this man?” they asked him.

“I don’t know,” he said.
The Pharisees Investigate the Healing

13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14 Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

17 Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

18 They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. 19 “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”

20 “We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
Spiritual Blindness

35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

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@Greatest I am,

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

2 Replies

@auroreII,

auroreII wrote:

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

I know this question was directed to GIA, but I will go ahead and try to explain briefly, in case it helps:

Everyone is a sinner because this world is one of sin. The issue is becoming aware of sin and oneself as a sinner, not who is a sinner vs. who isn't, because no one can be free of sin in this world. Viewing oneself as free of sin by regarding others as sinners and thus inferior is itself part of the sin of pride.

2 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

auroreII wrote:

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

I know this question was directed to GIA, but I will go ahead and try to explain briefly, in case it helps:

Everyone is a sinner because this world is one of sin. The issue is becoming aware of sin and oneself as a sinner, not who is a sinner vs. who isn't, because no one can be free of sin in this world. Viewing oneself as free of sin by regarding others as sinners and thus inferior is itself part of the sin of pride.

You know this subject to me is similar to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

As humans are pack animals I guess you could define sin as actions that harm the pack but not the going again the make up wishes of some non existed super being.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You know this subject to me is similar to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

As humans are pack animals I guess you could define sin as actions that harm the pack but not the going again the make up wishes of some non existed super being.

Humans, like other animals, often cause harm in the name of protecting/benefiting 'the pack.'

In Exodus, Moses killed an Egyptian for beating a Hebrew, but later got confronted about it when he saw one Hebrew beating another. This story captures the problem of intergroup violence vs. intragroup violence, and ultimately the commandment Moses received from God was not to kill period.

You can discuss/debate these philosophical issues, but it is not the same as "debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." Sin has a legitimate meaning, even if people have different ideas about what is sin vs. what is virtue and how it all works in the grand scheme, whatever that may be.

Quote:

Exodus 2
11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"

14 The man said, "Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid and thought, "What I did must have become known."

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Sin being define as a tort against a man created supernatural being is indeed the same as a debate concerning angels dancing on a head of a pin.

Now if you limit sin to a improper/harmful actions taken against other human beings that is another matter.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sin being define as a tort against a man created supernatural being is indeed the same as a debate concerning angels dancing on a head of a pin.

It's a tort in the sense that what goes around comes around. You kill someone's brother and your brother gets killed, for example. It is just because different people experience the same actions as either subject or object, depending on which side of the action they're on. When you're stealing from someone else, you might be thinking you hope you get away with it, but then when someone is stealing from you, you suffer by the same action you committed in the past, only now done to you by someone else's doing.

Some people believe in reincarnation as a way of coming back to reap the consequences of what you sowed but died before it came back to you. Others don't, but their descendants are eventually going to reap the fruit of seeds they sowed, just as we reap the fruit of seeds sown by our ancestors.

You don't have to actually think that you reincarnated from some past life to realize that things that happen to you in this life are caused by patterns that began before you were born.

So we suffer from the sins of others and others suffer because of our sins, and there is a balance to it. Jesus said the first shall be last and the last first, and that happens in many ways, if you haven't noticed yet.

Quote:

Now if you limit sin to a improper/harmful actions taken against other human beings that is another matter.

Sin can't be defined by humans. It is simply cause and effect. Actions cause effects. The Bible says, "the wages of sin is death," so you can trace back through all the things that add up to cause harm, destruction, and ultimately death and those are sin. We suffer and eventually die in this world, so we all suffer and reap harm from various kinds of sin in various ways.

2 Replies

@livinglava,

Yes sin is define by humans only humans as there is nothing but humans that have that ability to define sin.

Now maybe someday we will directly or indirectly meet beings that are at least as intelligent as humans but that is not the case now.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Yes sin is define by humans only humans as there is nothing but humans that have that ability to define sin.

When you walk into a pole and hit your head, do humans have the ability to define the bump?

Quote:

Now maybe someday we will directly or indirectly meet beings that are at least as intelligent as humans but that is not the case now.

Not all humans are as intelligent as some other humans, and the most intelligent humans are still far from achieving their highest potential, let alone what is ultimately possible.

As such there will always be higher intelligence/power to reckon with, if only as an unreachable objective within that won't stop beckoning to pursue it.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Sorry but no matter how many stories that are written concern higher power beings there is zero repeat zero indications of such beings with special note of them interacting or caring for that matter about humans.

The stories of the Greek or Roman gods are no less an no more likely then the stories of a Christian god or gods.

I can still remember reading the family King James Bible as a very young person an coming to the conclusion that it is complete nonsense an if it was somehow not complete nonsense the god in the bible is evil in terms of human standards with the new testament being a thin covering to the evil god of the old testament.

I can still remember feeling very alone in this opinion until I begin reading Paine and Jefferson and such other men and women.

Note the writings of neither Jefferson or Paine on religion was cover in the public schools but parts of the Bible was read to us every school day an O'hair was consider evil due to her reaching the same conclusions I had reach as a child.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sorry but no matter how many stories that are written concern higher power beings there is zero repeat zero indications of such beings with special note of them interacting or caring for that matter about humans.

You're focused on material manifestations and I'm trying to tell you to consider the innate potential for humans and/or other being to evolve in the direction you are referring to.

Quote:

The stories of the Greek or Roman gods are no less an no more likely then the stories of a Christian god or gods.

Take the sum total of everything humans have ever regarded as divine and everything they or some other species ever will discover as divine and compile that into a vast encyclopedia of higher intelligence/power and then consider that those compiled works are still not complete because there is yet more to discover.

It's not about what exists at the material level but what is possible within the limits of the universe.

Quote:

I can still remember reading the family King James Bible as a very young person an coming to the conclusion that it is complete nonsense an if it was somehow not complete nonsense the god in the bible is evil in terms of human standards with the new testament being a thin covering to the evil god of the old testament.

Nature manifests both good and evil. The creation manifests both good and evil. You are saying that God is evil when He allows humans to reap the fruit of their sin, but how can there be harm and destruction without humans reaping the same harm and destruction they sow and their ancestors have sown?

The goodness of God lies in the grace and mercy and forgiveness He makes possible for us despite all our self-destruction and harm of the creation we do with our bad (sinful) actions. In short, we deserve worse than we get.

Quote:

I can still remember feeling very alone in this opinion until I begin reading Paine and Jefferson and such other men and women.

Note the writings of neither Jefferson or Paine on religion was cover in the public schools but parts of the Bible was read to us every school day an O'hair was consider evil due to her reaching the same conclusions I had reach as a child.

I'm not familiar with these writings you're talking about, but there is a pattern in anti-theism that people just want freedom from religion and from the humility that comes with recognizing higher power and morality. People may get some short-term pleasure out of the hubris and self-indulgence that comes with this denial, but it is short-lived because ultimately the sh*t hits the fan so-to-speak and people see the light of wrongdoing and its effects and consequences.

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@Greatest I am,

You talk about scapegoats yet you posted a verse from the bible that makes it very clear that everyone will be accountable for the sins they have committed- no scapegoats.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
People try to to blame others for their own failings. Right from the beginning you see in Genesis that Adam tried to lay the blame on Eve for the fact that he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil - She made me do it. He even blamed God- You gave me the woman who made me do it. He tried to make them scapegoats yet he of his own free will chose to do it. Genesis 3:12
I asked you about sinners- what is a sinner. The meaning of the word sin means missing the mark. God doesn't see sin in the same light as people tend to. Some people tend to see sin in degrees- they believe some sinners are worse than others. The bible tells of the publican who went into the temple and confessed his sinfulness while a pharisee looked on in scorn thanking God he wasn't like this publican. Luke 18:9-14 Yet Jesus said only the publican came away from that justified. There are no degrees to sin. It is all bad. Kind of like being pregnant- you can't be just a little pregnant- either you're pregnant or you're not. You can't be a little sinful. Either you're sinful or you're not. If you're not sinful then you must be perfect. I'm not perfect. I've yet to meet anyone who is. The bible says we are all sinners. The wages of sin is death. That verse you quoted above says the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. If we are all sinners what are we to do? We all die for our sins. Where are we to find righteousness?
We can't give our life in ransom for other people's sin because we are all under the curse of death to pay for our own sins. It would take someone perfect, who did no sin, to die in our place. I believe that is the meaning of your second quote.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.
Jesus wasn't a scape goat. He saw our situation. He came willing and gave his life for ours so that we might have everlasting life in his kingdom. He did that because he loves us.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

[

I have read your book of myths.

Why are you quoting a myth as if it was history and truth?

Do you believe in taking serpents and donkeys?

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@auroreII,

auroreII wrote:

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

We are all born sinners, but I take the naturalist evolutionary track and discard the word sin and say that we are forced by nature to do evil.

See if you can get what I say below and please opine on it.

---------
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pope-would-you-accept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

auroreII wrote:

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

I know this question was directed to GIA, but I will go ahead and try to explain briefly, in case it helps:

Everyone is a sinner because this world is one of sin. The issue is becoming aware of sin and oneself as a sinner, not who is a sinner vs. who isn't, because no one can be free of sin in this world. Viewing oneself as free of sin by regarding others as sinners and thus inferior is itself part of the sin of pride.\/quote]

Why do you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault in your Exultet hymn?

Further, please read the post above and opine on the l;ogic and need for us to do evil.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

livinglava wrote:

auroreII wrote:

Do you believe there is such a thing as a sinner? If so how would you define a sinner.

I know this question was directed to GIA, but I will go ahead and try to explain briefly, in case it helps:

Everyone is a sinner because this world is one of sin. The issue is becoming aware of sin and oneself as a sinner, not who is a sinner vs. who isn't, because no one can be free of sin in this world. Viewing oneself as free of sin by regarding others as sinners and thus inferior is itself part of the sin of pride.

You know this subject to me is similar to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

As humans are pack animals I guess you could define sin as actions that harm the pack but not the going again the make up wishes of some non existed super being.

In the pack, animals, including man, compete so that the fittst can be known and followed.

This relates to that longish post above.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

So we suffer from the sins of others and others suffer because of our sins, and there is a balance to it.

Wow. That is victim blaming.

You think a rape victim deserved being raped because she sinned.

Tell that to one and see how fast you get slapped out. You would deserve it for blaming her for her own rape.

What a sick mind you have.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Greatest I am,

Greatest I am wrote:

I have read your book of myths.

Why are you quoting a myth as if it was history and truth?

Do you believe in taking serpents and donkeys?

Well, obviously you can just dismiss the story of virgin birth if you refuse to believe there's any possibility a virgin could be pregnant.

The question, however, is if it was so easy to refute this aspect of Jesus' story, along with the resurrection, why would it have survived for so long as gospel?

Do you think Christianity is a giant conspiracy to subjugate people to lies? If so, for what purpose? Ultimately Christianity preaches forgiveness of sin and thus liberation from damnation.

People claim it's about social power and class subjugation, pacification of rebellion, etc. etc. but really it is just about spiritual liberation from feelings of shame and damnation for sin that block people from living happy (eternal) lives redeemed from sin, free of death.

0 Replies

@auroreII,

auroreII wrote:

You talk about scapegoats yet you posted a verse from the bible that makes it very clear that everyone will be accountable for the sins they have committed- no scapegoats.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
People try to to blame others for their own failings. Right from the beginning you see in Genesis that Adam tried to lay the blame on Eve for the fact that he ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil - She made me do it. He even blamed God- You gave me the woman who made me do it. He tried to make them scapegoats yet he of his own free will chose to do it. Genesis 3:12
I asked you about sinners- what is a sinner. The meaning of the word sin means missing the mark. God doesn't see sin in the same light as people tend to. Some people tend to see sin in degrees- they believe some sinners are worse than others. The bible tells of the publican who went into the temple and confessed his sinfulness while a pharisee looked on in scorn thanking God he wasn't like this publican. Luke 18:9-14 Yet Jesus said only the publican came away from that justified. There are no degrees to sin. It is all bad. Kind of like being pregnant- you can't be just a little pregnant- either you're pregnant or you're not. You can't be a little sinful. Either you're sinful or you're not. If you're not sinful then you must be perfect. I'm not perfect. I've yet to meet anyone who is. The bible says we are all sinners. The wages of sin is death. That verse you quoted above says the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. If we are all sinners what are we to do? We all die for our sins. Where are we to find righteousness?
We can't give our life in ransom for other people's sin because we are all under the curse of death to pay for our own sins. It would take someone perfect, who did no sin, to die in our place. I believe that is the meaning of your second quote.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.
Jesus wasn't a scape goat. He saw our situation. He came willing and gave his life for ours so that we might have everlasting life in his kingdom. He did that because he loves us.

A sacrifice that doe not stay dead is a joke that only fools will not see through.

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards
DL

1 Reply

Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

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