Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

How is any condemnation unjust? Aren't we all sinners? Don't we all deserve to be condemned for sin?

Not only do you want to deny forgiveness/salvation, you want to deny that your sins earn you condemnation to begin with?

Talk about the grand lie of ego: "I'm perfect and I don't owe humility to God or Jesus or anyone for letting me off the hook for my egotistical/lying pride and all the rest of the sin that I'm guilty of.

Please do not lie about what I believe.

Your own bible says that justice is close to an eye for an eye, or that the penalty should suit the sin or crime.

What did you do that was so horrid that it earned you purposeless torture in hell and then death in the lake of fire?

I note that not only are you a liar, but are also a moral coward because you will not look at your immoral abdication of your own responsibility for your sins.

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@NealNealNeal,

NealNealNeal wrote:

Sin is missing the mark (of God's perfection)

Do we all have to seek to be as perfect as a genocidal and infanticidal prick the way Yahweh is depicted as being?

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Greatest I am,

Greatest I am wrote:

Your own bible says that justice is close to an eye for an eye, or that the penalty should suit the sin or crime.

That is justice, but it also says that God is merciful and forgives despite the fact that we don't deserve any better than we earn.

Quote:

What did you do that was so horrid that it earned you purposeless torture in hell and then death in the lake of fire?

'Lake of fire' is a metaphor. What did we do to end up in this world of sin and death? Trace it back by simply looking for causes of misery and their antecedent causes and conditions.

Quote:

I note that not only are you a liar, but are also a moral coward because you will not look at your immoral abdication of your own responsibility for your sins.

We are all sinners. It is built into our nature. We are forgiven and redeemed by grace. I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

2 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Quote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Your own bible says that justice is close to an eye for an eye, or that the penalty should suit the sin or crime.

That is justice, but it also says that God is merciful and forgives despite the fact that we don't deserve any better than we earn.

Yet your god always kill souls in the lake of fire for a lot less than killing.

Only a faith based belief in a genocidal prick of a god would have anyone call that merciful.

Quote:
Quote:
What did you do that was so horrid that it earned you purposeless torture in hell and then death in the lake of fire?

'Lake of fire' is a metaphor. What did we do to end up in this world of sin and death? Trace it back by simply looking for causes of misery and their antecedent causes and conditions.

If here is that bad, you would have to ask the prick of a god you believe in as to why he wanted you to be here.

Quote:
Quote:
I note that not only are you a liar, but are also a moral coward because you will not look at your immoral abdication of your own responsibility for your sins.

We are all sinners. It is built into our nature.

Your nature id from your god. Complain to him for creating your vile nature. I do not have one.

Quote:

We are forgiven and redeemed by grace.

Another lie according to your own bible. That or you just have not read it.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

You talk of Yahweh's justice.

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Quote:

I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

Progress would be to denounce Yahweh as unfit to be a god but you do not seem to be working towards that progress.

That is why you are a moral coward who does not care if you have sold your soul to Satan.

I have asked you a couple of questions that require moral judgements so I do not expect a worth while reply.

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@Greatest I am,

Greatest I am wrote:

Quote:

I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

Progress would be to denounce Yahweh as unfit to be a god but you do not seem to be working towards that progress.[/quote]
Being a 'work in progress,' means that we sinners acknowledge that we're not perfect and that we're not going to be perfect, but we are changing our attitudes and accepting salvation and redemption so that God will help us to move in the right direction. It means we repent for sin instead of rationalizing it and getting defensive about being judged by God.

Quote:

That is why you are a moral coward who does not care if you have sold your soul to Satan.

I have asked you a couple of questions that require moral judgements so I do not expect a worth while reply.

You post with so much hate.

2 Replies

@livinglava,

Quote:

We are all sinners. It is built into our nature. We are forgiven and redeemed by grace. I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

Love the very idea of a god building into our very nature to be sinners an then punishing us for being the sinners that he or she or it build into our nature.

This god seems to be a Trump type god IE completely illogical and incompetent while claiming otherwise.

Oh then like Trump having an incompetent son to try to solve the very problems he created in the first place.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
We are all sinners. It is built into our nature. We are forgiven and redeemed by grace. I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

Love the very idea of a god building into our very nature to be sinners an then punishing us for being the sinners that he or she or it build into our nature.

You and other people here have this attitude that you find so clever about yourselves that you can judge nature by coming up with some better, but the reality is that you don't have the power to create what God's Holy Spirit creates.

You're like a person who thinks the Earth has unlimited energy to do whatever we want, and then when you find out the science of why that's not possible, you blame God because you assume that there would be some benefit to God giving humans unlimited power without consequences for abusing it. You're so short-sighted that you find it in some way realistic to think of the universe/creation as anything being possible just because the human imagination is capable of conceiving it.

Quote:

This god seems to be a Trump type god IE completely illogical and incompetent while claiming otherwise.

Oh then like Trump having an incompetent son to try to solve the very problems he created in the first place.

For some reason He also gave people like you the power to ridicule and be arrogant, but the question is whether you like listening to such ridicule and arrogance when it's not coming from you.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Quote:

You and other people here have this attitude that you find so clever about yourselves that you can judge nature by coming up with some better, but the reality is that you don't have the power to create what God's Holy Spirit creates.

LOL the priests that over the centuries created this nonsense hardly have the power to create a god that is anything but a fantasy that is the same as any of the others gods that had been created over the history of mankind.

My favorite theory concerning gods is that the great cat god Ailuros or Bastet created the human race with a built in love for her subject. That is the only reason I can think of why some of her subjects can wake me up in the early morning to be feed or walk over my computer keyboard or the thousand an one other annoying things they do daily.

Quote:

You're like a person who thinks the Earth has unlimited energy to do whatever we want, and then when you find out the science of why that's not possible, you blame God because you assume that there would be some benefit to God giving humans unlimited power without consequences for abusing it. You're so short-sighted that you find it in some way realistic to think of the universe/creation as anything being possible just because the human imagination is capable of conceiving it.

You are the one who support the silliness of the creating an all powerful
god, outside the laws of nature, who value humans over all other animals and without any reason or proof that such a being existing in this universe or any other universe.

Beside if such a being did exist as portrayed in the Christian bible it would be a very evil being indeed for the reasons I have given in earlier postings.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

LOL the priests that over the centuries created this nonsense hardly have the power to create a god that is anything but a fantasy that is the same as any of the others gods that had been created over the history of mankind.

You have taken this paradigm of God as a social-cultural construction and cemented it to prevent yourself from even being able to contemplate what it means for there to be a single unified creative force, power, and authority of the entire universe.

Do you imagine the laws of physics to be as relativistic as you imagine theology to be? If not, then you are failing to understand that the universality of physical laws directly translate into support for monotheism.

You simply don't understand that 'God' is just a personification of divine authority/power for the sake of understanding human existence in relation to the larger universe it emerged from.

Quote:

My favorite theory concerning gods is that the great cat god Ailuros or Bastet created the human race with a built in love for her subject. That is the only reason I can think of why some of her subjects can wake me up in the early morning to be feed or walk over my computer keyboard or the thousand an one other annoying things they do daily.

Ridicule is your mode of worship. You worship false gods by ridiculing them. As such, you can't know the real God.

Quote:

Quote:
You're like a person who thinks the Earth has unlimited energy to do whatever we want, and then when you find out the science of why that's not possible, you blame God because you assume that there would be some benefit to God giving humans unlimited power without consequences for abusing it. You're so short-sighted that you find it in some way realistic to think of the universe/creation as anything being possible just because the human imagination is capable of conceiving it.

You are the one who support the silliness of the creating an all powerful
god, outside the laws of nature, who value humans over all other animals and without any reason or proof that such a being existing in this universe or any other universe.

God doesn't value humans over other creatures. Don't you know about Noah's Ark and the flood? You are just talking superficialities you've amassed as ammunition against religion without ever studying it deeply enough to understand it at the level of a believer.

Maybe you are envious on some level of the spiritual benefits of deep understanding and true belief and so you hate and attack it as something beyond reach of your mind that isn't able to overcome its own rebellious tendencies against higher authority/power.

Quote:

Beside if such a being did exist as portrayed in the Christian bible it would be a very evil being indeed.

Yes, I know that's your go-to line, i.e. that 'the Christian God' is evil. You think you have such a smart deconstructive mind by turning the idea of evil against Christianity, but you just don't understand the philosophy of good and evil when you operate at such a superficial level.

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

So this story shows that God regrets His creation of humans because of our evil tendencies, and He flooded the Earth to destroy them; but then He decided not to do it again because He realized that is just our nature, but there is accounting where we pay for our sins instead of being destroyed altogether.

So you could say all this adds up to a form of ultimate perfection, but within the 'perfection,' there is sin and the impulse to destroy sinners.

If that is perfection, what does a mistake look like?
It takes some serious jumping through hoops to come up with that conclusion.

1 Reply

@Greatest I am,

I don't know if God has original sin or not. But, I am sure that God has a penis.

1 Reply

@mesquite,

mesquite wrote:

livinglava wrote:
So this story shows that God regrets His creation of humans because of our evil tendencies, and He flooded the Earth to destroy them; but then He decided not to do it again because He realized that is just our nature, but there is accounting where we pay for our sins instead of being destroyed altogether.

So you could say all this adds up to a form of ultimate perfection, but within the 'perfection,' there is sin and the impulse to destroy sinners.

If that is perfection, what does a mistake look like?
It takes some serious jumping through hoops to come up with that conclusion.

Perfection is implicit in perfectionism, i.e. where people implicitly regard sin as if it were a deviation from some form of perfection that exists outside of heaven, which is beyond the world.

Jesus told people who were ready to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery to death, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and they all put down their stones because they were aware that no one is without sin. Thinking that you or someone else in this world is perfect is itself the sin of pride, which causes us to feel superior to other sinners and judge their sin instead of just seeing it and wanting them to change for the better.

So when you make a snide comment about perfection like you do above, it implies that arrogant attitude of being judgmental of other sinners as if you yourself were beyond sin. You have to be humble enough to admit you're arrogant and judgmental, and so you are a sinner (bad person) like other sinners/bad-people, and then your attitude is supposed to change from hating sinners for their sins to wanting them to realize that they are forgiven for their sins so that they can be redeemed and become better people.

Now when I say that to you, you are probably going to lash out at me as a reaction to being told you're a bad person (even though I told you that I too, along with everyone else are bad people in need of salvation/redemption) but if you are a typical non-Christian, you will just scoff and that and call it a bunch of nonsense and you will go on living in denial of sin and the need for forgiveness/salvation, but realize when you talk about imperfection, you should recognize the need for everyone to improve and not exclude yourself from that observation.

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Quote:

I try to honor my salvation, but I'm no more perfect in that than anything else. In Christianity, many people describe themselves as "works in progress."

Progress would be to denounce Yahweh as unfit to be a god but you do not seem to be working towards that progress.

Being a 'work in progress,' means that we sinners acknowledge that we're not perfect and that we're not going to be perfect, but we are changing our attitudes and accepting salvation and redemption so that God will help us to move in the right direction. It means we repent for sin instead of rationalizing it and getting defensive about being judged by God.

Quote:

That is why you are a moral coward who does not care if you have sold your soul to Satan.

I have asked you a couple of questions that require moral judgements so I do not expect a worth while reply.

You post with so much hate.
[/quote]

Yes. Thank you.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't know if God has original sin or not. But, I am sure that God has a penis.

IDK, but Christians sure like sucking it, whenever they get their heads out of his ass.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

It means we repent for sin instead of rationalizing it and getting defensive about being judged by God.

Jews and the rest of the free world did not trust Hitler's judgements, so why would you trust your genocidal god's?

They have the same basic characters. Right?

I noted above that the moral questions I asked you were ignored.

Are you always a moral coward?

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Greatest I am,

Greatest I am wrote:

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

You don't have to have faith in Christians or Muslims to have faith in Christ and God. Lots of people don't live up to the ideals of their religions, and that is to be expected in an imperfect world.

Your problem is that you need Christ and God to redeem you in order for you to forgive them for their imperfections. Otherwise you just keep boiling in your own anger and hatred to no one's benefit, including your own.

Quote:

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Human-centered is the same thing as ego-centered. To become good, we have to become humble, and we become humble by seeing that we are sinners in need of salvation from a higher power.

Quote:

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

I don't really see God as supernatural beyond the fact that He is the God of nature. Miracles, for example, all happen without defying any laws of physics. God doesn't need to break His own laws to make humans experience miraculous interventions because that's just part of how we perceive/understand things that happen . . . and that in itself is miraculous, i.e. that we as humans have the capacity to experience miracles in occurrences that don't have to defy natural laws to occur.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Your problem is that you need Christ and God to redeem you in order for you to forgive them for their imperfections.

I have had my apotheosis, my psychobabling friend so keep your G D stupidity to yourself.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

That Jesus wants to save us from religions while your vile ilk want to slave us to it as it has done to you.

Quote:
Quote:

To become good, we have to become humble, and we become humble by seeing that we are sinners in need of salvation from a higher power.

What an inflated superior ego you have to presume you know what a god wants from us.

Get the log out of your eye.

Regards
DL

2 Replies

@Greatest I am,

We know what God wants because He told us in the Bible.

1 Reply

@Greatest I am,

Greatest I am wrote:

Your problem is that you need Christ and God to redeem you in order for you to forgive them for their imperfections.

The natural state is ego. We naturally struggle to become better relative to others in a sort of competition for love. We do that because we haven't yet come to grasp divine love, which we don't have to compete for. Divine love helps us through all our struggles and sin regardless of how good or bad we are. Christ is how we learn this, if we can accept that God can love us despite us sinning against Him to point of killing His son.

Quote:

I have had my apotheosis, my psychobabling friend so keep your G D stupidity to yourself.

And what is the pinnacle of knowledge that you consider apotheosis then?

Quote:

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

That Jesus wants to save us from religions while your vile ilk want to slave us to it as it has done to you.

Religions are social traditions for passing down information/knowledge/truth in various forms. People reject dogmatism but they forget that dogma is useful for people to record and preserve cultural texts when they may not yet (fully) understand or grasp them at every level. Without religion, you would not have the verses you quoted above, nor would Alan Watts.

What you do to yourself and others spiritually when you foment so much enmity is contrary to Holy Spirit. It's fine and good to raise issues for questioning, but try not to express aggression and hostility. I know it's hard because it is frustrating when you see something that others can't see and you are struggling to get them to see it.

Quote:

Quote:

To become good, we have to become humble, and we become humble by seeing that we are sinners in need of salvation from a higher power.

What an inflated superior ego you have to presume you know what a god wants from us.

Get the log out of your eye.

We all have temptations to pride and over-confidence, so you're right I have to try to be aware of my own as much as possible. You have to go with what you currently believe, however, even though you might discover you were wrong later on. Otherwise, you'd just have to wait and do/believe nothing while waiting for further revelation. You make a good point, though, that it is good to be humble and keep in mind that your perspective can always change in the future if God reveals something new to you through Holy Spirit.

0 Replies

@NealNealNeal,

NealNealNeal wrote:

We know what God wants because He told us in the Bible.

LOL

0 Replies

Was Jesus born with Original Sin?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know