RexRed
 
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 04:50 pm
Last night I heard the best argument supplanting the idea that God does not exist.

Before I go into that let's set the parameters of what God would have to be to exist.

God would have to meet "at least" four main requirements.

1) God would have to be all knowing or omniscient. Most religious people think they know it all but God would actually have to KNOW IT ALL... This requires a brain much larger than the universe itself. Maybe the universe is God's brain. Consider though, an all knowing God would not produce holy books full of gaping errors in science and morality.

2) God would have to be all powerful or omnipotent. Although the universe has many forms of energy, the energy of God would have to be greater than all the energy in the universe and any other subsequent or parallel universes.

3) God would have to be everywhere present or omnipresent. So God would have to be both in hell and heaven, permeate all creation and exist also outside of creation.

4) God would have to be un-created, meaning, God did not evolve over an infinite number of years but simply is and always has been. Thus God cannot be an alien because an alien would have evolved from creation rather than be the catalyst for creation.

The crux of this discussion hinges on this one main point, "complexity"...

Do complex things i.e. God, simply exist or do they need to evolve over time and be designed by say the earth, moon and sun or other natural forces?

Humans are not the only designers, nature has the ability to design and nature requires no God to do so.

Most of science (physicists, chemists and biologists) adheres to the latter that complexity slowly and gradually over time develops from the more simplistic elements. The universe sprang out of quantum nothingness, chemistry sprang out of simple hydrogen burners (suns) going supernova and life sprung out of this chemistry and plasma emitted by exploding stars.

If there are scientific answers for the formation of the universe, chemistry and how life came into existence, then, where exactly does an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God fit in? What would be the purpose of such a God considering the universe did not need such a being to come into existence?

The question would be how did such a God like this proposed by theists and religion have ever come to be in the first place? What is the rationale for a God that was never created? It would seem if God was never created, then, under the same logic, God does not exist...

And if God created us in an image similar to their own then would that not make God also a form that was once born, evolved and grew from adolescence to adulthood? Do we not constantly change form over the course of our lives?

If God is all powerful why create a world that evidently evolved from the simplistic to the complex? Why wait billions of years for humans to evolve, why not simply wish fully evolved creatures into being?

It seems the God question is full of contradiction and holes in logic.

Could this be the nature of God to defy all logic, where the only thing that defies logic is that which creates? Is the nature of God absurdity? How can we be in the same image where we are extorted to be creatures of reason and logic but the thing which we are a mirror image of is illogical?

It seems evident that either the biblical parameters of God are flawed or the idea of God impossible. At the very heart of the God dilemma is the supernatural, thus science would have no validity under such conditions.

If God is superstitiously tipping the scales then the measurement of all matter both physical and metaphysical could never be verified by repetition and analysis. If this were the case then the constants of the universe would collapse due instability and light would not be constrained by physical characteristics.

This would be like having a yardstick that its bars of measurement constantly change. This is not the world we live in. Though physicists talk of time bending and light popping in and out of reality there are still natural phenomenon to explain these bends and ebbs in the fabric of the universe.

This discussion seeks to clarify both religious and scientific arguments for and against the existence of God.

I might add that, just because people choose to act out under the auspices of some imaginary God, that does not make this God real... Due to the radical and contradictory dogma of the religions it does provide many rational arguments against the existence of said God(s).
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Type: Discussion • Score: 41 • Views: 91,647 • Replies: 2,794

 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 05:52 pm
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/226758_642150235813208_1881397134_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:35 pm
@RexRed,
5) God created the universe(s).

6) If god is all knowing (1), and if god is omnipotent (2), and if god wanted me to know he existed, he could have made it clear to me that he exists. Therefore god does not want me to know he exists, if he exists. [Same goes with aliens if they can be considered to fulfill (1) and (2)]

7) If god makes things he likes, then god does not like planets shaped like cubes.

8) If god hates things he makes, then god hates giant spheres.

9) If god created us from his own image, then he looks human but is not necessarily composed of the same stuff.

10) By (6), it is not possible for me to know if god exists having the attributes (1) and (2) [All this is under the assumption that (1) and (2) are valid attributes for something to have.]

RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 12:37 am
@tomr,
Tomr, thanks for your addition to this thread. Your post is thought provoking and interesting. Smile
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 01:31 am
Logically, the burden of proof lies on the person(s) making the claim.

If a theist makes a claim that there is a god, it's up to him/her to provide credible evidence.

If an atheist makes a claim that there is no god, it's up to him/her to provide credible evidence.

To date, I haven't encountered conclusive evidence from either camp, so I suspend judgement on the question. I haven't found compelling reasons to live as though there were a god, because a) I don't have experience of such a thing, and b) mundane experience is sufficiently compelling to prompt everyday behavior.

It's a hot topic these days, though. Smile
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 11:40 am
@RexRed,
Quote:
1) God would have to be all knowing or omniscient.
She'd then have to be able to predict the future in toto, which suggests predetermination, contrary to the usual concept of Her. If it's all laid out in advance, then why bother

Quote:
Most religious people think they know it all but God would actually have to KNOW IT ALL... This requires a brain much larger than the universe itself. Maybe the universe is God's brain.
For what it's worth, us panthiests see Her, It, as The Universe, all that matter being Her body and all that activity her thought. But of course there's nothing outside It

Quote:
Consider though, an all knowing God would not produce holy books full of gaping errors in science and morality.
Assuming by "all knowing" you don't include predetermination, then why not, their production being an almost inevitable product of freewill. She chuckles at it all

Quote:
2) God would have to be all powerful or omnipotent.
False of course since She cannot do the impossible. If She could, for instance, She could make Herself simultaneously exist and not exist

Quote:
Although the universe has many forms of energy, the energy of God would have to be greater than all the energy in the universe and any other subsequent or parallel universes.
Your suggestion is the dualistic idea that there are two kinds of energy, the regular kind and God's kind. Sounds muddled

Quote:
3) God would have to be everywhere present or omnipresent.
Which She is of course, 'cause She is It, All, Everything

Quote:
Quote:
So God would have to be both in hell and heaven,
That She is. We live in the mix, it's not something you go to, it's something you're born into

permeate all creation and exist also outside of creation.
Creation is an ongoing process, there's nothing outside It, and It goes on forever, no beginning, no end

Quote:
4) God would have to be un-created, meaning, God did not evolve over an infinite number of years but simply is and always has been.
Precisely. The idea of "nothingness" preceding "creation" is full of logical holes, contradictory, incongruous

Quote:
Thus God cannot be an alien because an alien would have evolved from creation rather than be the catalyst for creation.
Another way of saying that, She can't be a separate being because the idea is dualistic, and dualism is full of holes

Quote:
The crux of this discussion hinges on this one main point, "complexity"...Do complex things i.e. God, simply exist or do they need to evolve over time and be designed by say the earth, moon and sun or other natural forces?
Both. She simply exists, She can't help existing, She's the natural way things have to be; and at the same time She evolves and devolves cyclically

Quote:
Humans are not the only designers, nature has the ability to design and nature requires no God to do so.
But She is Nature

Quote:
Most of science (physicists, chemists and biologists) adheres to the latter that complexity slowly and gradually over time develops from the more simplistic elements.
Of course, that seems pretty obvious, given humanoid evolution for instance

Quote:
The universe sprang out of quantum nothingness,
Pretty hard to picture, isn't it

Quote:
chemistry sprang out of simple hydrogen burners (suns) going supernova and life sprung out of this chemistry and plasma emitted by exploding stars.
Sounds right

Quote:
If there are scientific answers for the formation of the universe, chemistry and how life came into existence, then, where exactly does an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God fit in?
She doesn't have to fit in 'cause She is It

Quote:
What would be the purpose of such a God considering the universe did not need such a being to come into existence?
She didn't "come into existence," as you noted above, She always existed

Quote:
The question would be how did such a God like this proposed by theists and religion have ever come to be in the first place?
You're asking, "Why instead isn't there simply nothing," a perfectly rational q. We lack the language to express it, but eventually it will be shown that the idea of nothingness entails contradiction and paradox. In other words, She is because She has to be

Quote:
What is the rationale for a God that was never created?
Explained above

Quote:
It would seem if God was never created, then, under the same logic, God does not exist...
The problem here is that we haven't defined either "God" or "existence". What we have is something apparently beyond us at the moment. We can respond to the Athiest, "Okay, don't call It "God, call It anything you like"

Quote:
And if God created us in an image similar to their own
????????

Quote:
then would that not make God also a form that was once born,
At risk of repetition, She wasn't "born," She didn't need to be 'cause She always was

The idea that She popped out of "nothingness" then created us is --ahem--open to criticism. Unless you define "nothingness" as that tiny heavy ball ball I shall herewith specify:

Quote:
evolved and grew from adolescence to adulthood? Do we not constantly change form over the course of our lives?
Yes but both ways. The Whole Shebang apparently starts as a uniform substance of zero (?) diameter and infinite (?) mass. There's nothing outside it, no space, nothing. Then we have the Big Bang, evolution, dissolution and reversal, Big Crunch, back to the Tiny Spot once again. She's cyclical

Quote:
If God is all powerful why create a world that evidently evolved from the simplistic to the complex?
She doesn't know exactly what's going to happen and so She enjoys the whole show, immensely

Quote:
Why wait billions of years for humans to evolve, why not simply wish fully evolved creatures into being?
Because that's impossible

Quote:
It seems the usu God q's are full of contradiction and holes in logic.
Yes the conventional notion is a logical mess

Quote:
Could this be the nature of God to defy all logic, where the only thing that defies logic is that which creates?
No

Quote:
Is the nature of God absurdity?
No, it's wonder

Quote:
How can we be in the same image where we are extorted to be creatures of reason and logic but the thing which we are a mirror image of is illogical?
It isn't

Quote:
It seems evident that either the biblical parameters of God are flawed or the idea of God impossible.
The bib stuff is largely symbolic. The really smart leaders had to couch the whole thing in symbolism because they knew the Hoi Polloi wouldn't understand anything more abstract

Quote:
At the very heart of the God dilemma is the supernatural, thus science would have no validity under such conditions.
Nothing is supernatural. Indeed the word itself suggests "impossible"

Quote:
If God is superstitiously tipping the scales then the measurement of all matter both physical and metaphysical could never be verified by repetition and analysis.
She isn't 'cause She can't

Quote:
If this were the case then the constants of the universe would collapse due instability and light would not be constrained by physical characteristics.
Don't worry, things won't change much. They won't 'cause they can't

In fact certain recent discoveries regarding the physical constants suggest they depend upon one another, which is just another way of saying that She's the Way She Is because it's the only way She can be

Quote:
…..This is not the world we live in……there are still natural phenomenon to explain these bends and ebbs…...This discussion seeks to clarify both religious and scientific arguments for and against the existence of God.
Thank you for it, Rex, you do good work


Quote:
I might add that, just because people choose to act out under the auspices of some imaginary God, that does not make this God real...
Again, it's all in your defs. Reality is an abstract quality, and you are freely invited to call Her anything you want, or to deny Her existence entirely, according to whatever definition of "existence" that appeals to you. Freewill

Quote:
Due to the radical and contradictory dogma of the religions it does provide many rational arguments against the existence of said God(s).
Again Rex thank you for this opportunity to shoot my mouth off
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jun, 2013 12:07 pm
@tomr,
Quote:
5) God created the universe(s).
Out of what, nothing

And if so, Tomr, there must have been a "time" when there was She but no Universe. Yet didn't She create time too, and if so isn't the foregoing idea contradictory

Quote:
6) If god is all knowing
She can't be, as pointed out earlier

Quote:
(1), and if god is omnipotent (2),
Of course She can't be, omnipotence is impossible because the impossible can't be done. For there to be Us to appreciate Her works, She requires a Big Bang, matter formation, planetary accumulation, evolution, etc etc. That's why we have earthquakes, disease, suffering, murder, all of which is destined eventually to burn out with the rest of matter. The way things are

Quote:
and if god wanted me to know he existed, he could have made it clear to me that he exists.
Her existence is quite clear to many of us though as I point out elsewhere "existence" is open to definition

Quote:
Therefore god does not want me to know he exists, if he exists. [Same goes with aliens if they can be considered to fulfill (1) and (2)]
Owing to the Abstract Nature of It aAll, we haven't yet developed language techniques to explore the apparent difficulty: That is, whether or not She exists depends on how you define "existence". As I mentioned to Res, you're allowed to call Her anything you like and even maintain that She doesn't exist. It's all semantics

Quote:
7) If god makes things he likes, then god does not like planets shaped like cubes.
They're spheres because that's the way they have to be. She can't change that requirement

Quote:
8) If god hates things he makes, then god hates giant spheres.
She "makes" things only to the extent that She evolves. Evolution doesn't entail many choices

Quote:
9) If god created us from his own image, then he looks human but is not necessarily composed of the same stuff.
. Yes, She's The Universe, of course. The part, however (us) can't quite look like The Whole (Her)

Quote:
10) By (6), it is not possible for me to know if god exists having the attributes (1) and (2) [All this is under the assumption that (1) and (2) are valid attributes for something to have.]
….which of course they aren't.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 09:04 pm
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/10602_643502495677366_1648867672_n.jpg
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 09:12 pm
Mary was also about 14 years old... did God think she was adult enough to make a decision to be, err... violated?
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 10:49 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/10602_643502495677366_1648867672_n.jpg


This is an example of why faith is so central to the dogma. You just gotta let your common sense go and believe in miracles. GODDIDIT!
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 11:34 pm
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/999257_540229262679147_769933295_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jun, 2013 11:49 pm
@RexRed,
False axioms, Rex
God need not be omnipresent.
God is not omniscient; the quality of omniscince would bind him to foreknowledge, hence faulting him for thousands of years of human misery.

Sorry, I didn't read your complete rant, Rex. I stop when the BS gets neck deep. Besides, don't you know it's impossible to prove a negative?
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 12:31 am
@neologist,
Job 37:16
Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Comment: In other words the Bible claims God knows what a person is gonna say before they say it.

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Comment: More of the same malarkey

Psalm 139 1-6
1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Isaiah 41:21-24
21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

Comment: Pertaining to the foreknowledge of God.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Comment: Ditto

Isaiah 44:7
And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Comment Ditto again.

Matthew 10
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Comment: God knows how many hairs we have, how many we have lost and if any will grow back.

It’s interesting to note that God actually revealed to Isaiah the name of Cyrus even before he was actually born — in fact, one century before he was born. Cyrus, of course, was the king who returned the Jews to their homeland after the Babylonian exile. Isa. 44:28-45:1

According to the writings attributed to Matthew God even knows how lives would have been had circumstances been different.

Matt. 11:21 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Psalm 147
4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Comment: Just the Milky Way has an estimated 400 billion stars and there are 176 billion galaxies, at least, in the Universe.

So you are saying God only knows what YOU want him/her to know huh?

Once again, subjective Christianity at its finest...
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:07 am
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:
. . . So you are saying God only knows what YOU want him/her to know huh? . . .
No.
He only knows what he wants to know.
He has no more obligation to peer into your moral outcome than you have to read the last page of the whodunnit.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:54 am
@neologist,
Neo I think you are a good soul regardless of what state of mind we each have come to see ourselves as.

When I was young I thought God was only concerned about my sin. Every time I would find fault with myself I thought God was there to readily condemn me.

One day it occurred to me... What kind of God follows people around only looking for the bad in people like some kind of voyeur or gossip hound?

Is God's only purpose to impute punishment? ...and what of the rewards and all the talk of grace? Mere words only to some.

If there is a God or not I think that we should empathize with ourselves, others and our/their "sins" and look to the good by building upon that instead.

Edification and exhortation are exactly that, though instead words like sin and condemnation seem to get top billing in the minds of too many...

We are all unworthy to be called God... Perhaps that is the purpose of the human condition that through our own fault and imperfection we can find meaning in life beyond the selfish, high mindedness and judgmental tendencies of ourselves and others.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 09:53 am
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:
. . . When I was young I thought God was only concerned about my sin. Every time I would find fault with myself I thought God was there to readily condemn me.

One day it occurred to me... What kind of God follows people around only looking for the bad in people like some kind of voyeur or gossip hound?

Is God's only purpose to impute punishment? ...and what of the rewards and all the talk of grace? Mere words only to some.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 12:16 pm
@neologist,
That's what I get for trying to format on my phone. . .
Rex. My friend. I'm sorry someone caused you to believe in a God who seeks to judge and punish. Jehovah knows full well that we did not ask to be born into imperfection. The option, however, would have been to destroy Adam, Eve, and Satan on the spot. Then, of course, you and I would not have had a chance to live. This, along with other issues, is the root of our pain.

The redemption given by Jesus is for all, including those who may have died by God's hand in the past. God has promised to set things straight for all
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 12:28 pm
@neologist,
God's promise in the book of Revelation is to wipe the tears from every eye. Don't prejudge what that might mean in your case. Carole and I have a dear friend with cerebral palsy and 2 others who are blind. In their cases, certainly they will be restored to physical perfection. But then there are our mental injuries, many of which are far more painful. When God removes all tears, he will bring us to mental perfection as well. At the end of that day, all will be able to declare God's work to be good.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 07:00 pm
@neologist,
What kind of powerless God creates suffering than makes promises unverifiable in their absence and then expects us to believe all things are possible?

Like an IOU written by a serial convict...

I say enjoy life in spite of handicaps and stop looking for some pie in the sky. It is easy to exhort others to hope when our own plate is full. Rather, lovingly accept them the way they are. Donate to medical science... That is where the REAL hope is.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 09:29 pm
@RexRed,
Have you forgotten who is the god of this world?
I thought you knew your Bible.
Don't blame Jehovah for the machinations of his adversary.
 

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