No Justice, No Peace

Forums: Racism, Police Brutality
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I attend a weekly book study that’s focused on the message of the Sermon on the Mount. Generally, I am the only regular attendee who is black. This morning we were talking about different aspects of utilizing nonresistance as a personal response to evil. I find myself pretty deeply affected by this latest round of police murders of black men, so I understandably felt compelled to bring those current events into this morning’s discussion about (non)resistance to evil.

I never know what to expect when I talk about racism to white people. The reactions I got ran the gamut. Everything from sincere-seeming expressions of love and solidarity, to honest confessions of nonplussed cluelessness at the whole thing, to strained professions of empathy mixed with mini-ads about their own personal goodness and longsuffering toward the brown people - and a bit of white grievance sprinkled on top (I’m really good and I really care and I really try and I shouldn’t get accused of being condescending!)

I wish to comment here on the latter of the three kinds of reactions.

Tonight I heard Vice-Presidential candidate (God forbid) Mike Pence on TV saying that times like these are not helped by all this talk of racism, and that we should all really stop talking about it. Pence says instead of (I’m paraphrasing here), using the words of division, we should be using the words of unity. I get the same general feeling from Pence (and I suspect his attitude is shared by about half of the voting public) that I got from that third reaction. It’s like, a real struggle with the whole idea of discussing racism. A sort of superior air that says: Yeah, I know there’s something called racism, but do we have to talk about it? And if we do have to talk about it, can’t we dispense with it quickly so we can get on to more comfortable things?

I knew I had lost the thread of reason and reality when - trying to explain my level of emotional involvement in recent events - I shared that in my life I had known other black men, and had myself been manhandled by police for no good reason. The little white lady seated next to me piped right up with “I have, too!” – then went on to share her police brutality story. I’ll give her the benefit of a doubt and say that part of what she was doing was just trying to normalize things and make them less tense. But what she shared also had the effect of minimizing the horrible damage that’s being done to black and brown people at the hands of “law enforcement”.

It seems to me some white people know they don’t know, and they’re open to hashing it out. Some white people will talk about it, but with closed minds thinking they know, and they don’t. And some don’t know and don’t want to know, but will still exert effort to convince you that they know better than you.

I like harmony and community as much as anyone I know. But… no justice, no peace.

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@snood,

To be rude, Pence is a prick, though I admit various football teams are doing unity, which makes sense, I suppose. I'm white and I haven't experienced what you have, but I have been awake. I know, not the same. I'm the one whose husband, white kid, was playing baseball in Watts the day of the riots.. because that was their near neighborhood (they lived by Budlong and Florence, another flash point)..

I'm not clueless, but I'm also not you, living it.

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I have despaired of convincing most of the people I know that it is more than simply tit for tat. A black person pushes; a white person pushes back. That is how most people I know look at it. They believe black Americans have no case for justice. Many of the people I have lived around for more than thirty years avoid me as the liberal ------ lover. I raised my kids to recognize racism. Now that I no longer see their daily personal lives, I hope it stuck. On another thread, the originator of the thread condemned the riots going on this week. This was my response:

It's not a question of ethics and it is not about a single incident. First, it is like physics: For every action there is an equal and opposed reaction. Which brings us to second. There is a cultural conviction that black lives are not valuable, that they are by nature nefarious and deserving of ill treatment. Cops all over the nation are killing black people or at the least profiling them. It was a powder keg before the killing that triggered it. First the wind then the whirlwind; the equal and opposed reaction. There will be riots and protests as long as an entire people know they or their children are almost certain to be the next victims.

I don't know what to add just now, but that is my take.

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@edgarblythe,

My take is that people still differ. I take a lot of this despoliation is from the south. Which is true to some extent. I get it the north, the so called blue, is way not pure, but the south seems like a hot bed, to a reader.

Some people seem like hyenas to to me, rabid haters.

I'm a person who doesn't ordinarily dislike cops (lucky woman). I've promoted a police book by Conlan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Conlon on a2k in our books section several times. He's not particularly liberal. Worthwhile book.

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@snood,

Not to diminish police activity towards blacks, but I think law enforcement in this country is in general poorly trained in how to deal with people they come in contact with.

Blacks are treated like criminals and shot down with the slightest movement, women are propositioned and sexually assaulted, youth are intimidated and manhandled as well. It is a national problem and not just towards blacks. I don't like to distinguish between colors - there is only one race, the human race.

I am white, I am a foreigner, I am a woman and I am scared to death when I am stopped by police.

In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

Almost twice as many whites were killed by law enforcement and I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. Law enforcement is poorly trained and it's not a matter of being black or white.

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To be against police brutality is not necessarily to be a hater of all cops. I wish people could get that.

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@CalamityJane,

When they kill whites it is for different reasons. You don't see videos all over the place of whites getting shot for no good reason.

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@CalamityJane,

I've never understood the shoot to kill thing. I get it in some instances, but mostly not in most. I do get that if you are the police person, that can be trouble to distinguish, but it lands on always kill, as one can't seem to have another choice. I'd say it is ridiculous, but that is too easy, as that is how it is.

Much of the killing is, to me, superfluous re the need to stop a person... grotesque.

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@ossobucotemp,

Choice of what to do re race - icing on the cake.

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@edgarblythe,

I didn't talk about hate of all cops - I said that law enforcement is poorly trained and that's the real issue here.

Also edgar, how do you know that whites are killed for different reason?
Just because there aren't any videos made public of these shootings, doesn't mean they're justified. There is hardly ever a justification of police shooting another person other than in self defense and self defense stretches to an entire new interpretation with American police.

Another thing, why is this predominately happening in the US? Why not in other countries? Think about it!

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@CalamityJane,

Quote:

Almost twice as many whites were killed by law enforcement and I think we have to look at the bigger picture here.

Percentages mean anything to you? Whites make up about 61% of the population. Blacks, 13%. In other words, they are killing FAR more Blacks per capita than whites. Do you not understand that?

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

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@snood,

This is a bundle, in that you are right, blacks are the targets of the day and night, but I think the whole shoot to kill thing at the flash of a book (or whatever) needs reviewing. As it is, it is imbescilic (sp?)

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@snood,

I realize that you want to give this the race ticket, but I stand with my opinion that it is poor training of law enforcement - more than anything else.

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@CalamityJane,

I'm not "giving" it anything. It's a mathematical fact that cops kill more blacks than whites by percentage of population.
That's not something I can spin.

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@snood,

So what do you think you can achieve with playing the victim card? Why isn't there a solidified black movement ? Why is there just violent outbursts of the black community? Why aren't black people better organized to fight the system - an unjustified system towards them?

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@snood,

Yes, the black population is about 13 % in the U.S. - yet 1 in every 15 African American men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, one in three black men can expect to go to prison in their lifetime.

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@CalamityJane,

So I guess your take is that the unarmed black men getting murdered by cops are bringing it on themselves?

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@snood,

Not at all - I've been saying that law enforcement is poorly trained and they truly are.
What you're doing is playing the victim card and to me this is an easy way out, just like resorting to violence and burning down your own city to make a statement. You want to be respected, you want to be taken seriously, then act accordingly.
One innocent black man is shot by law enforcement without any merit. Where are black attorneys filing suit against such blatant injustice? Why aren't black people signing petitions to change laws pertaining to these injustices?

I've seen 2 parents change the law according to their wishes (Meagan law for instance), where is the black movement towards change?

You're so busy playing the victim and being violent, what change should that bring?

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@snood,

At what point does race stop playing into it and it just becomes a case of police brutality? Where in it becomes just another show of lack of caring by all. A clear sign that there is something wrong with the system as a whole.

Where do you draw the line in the sand and say no more violence period. Because you cannot say that the response by the black community to turn around and riot, destroy, and loot helps any of it. Violence begetting violence is not a answer unless your answer is more death and bloodshed. An that's a great answer as long as you have more numbers or more force of some kind and the group as a whole is willing to keep feeding lives to the cause.

As rational people should that ever be the first answer to the problem? I don't think so. I think all the lives matter or none of the lives matter. There is no in between the two. You want to effect change you make it a point to start calling people, you start getting people to put in the leg work to get a law changed, to get polices and training changed. You work to see that the collective voice is heard.

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@CalamityJane,

I agree strongly that law enforcement is poorly trained by my view, but includes bias, probably top down, and I would add, with poor directives.

On what blacks should do to have more black attorneys argue, that is part of the problem. Not always. I figure it has to do with access to get to school.

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No Justice, No Peace

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