36
   

Charleston Church Massacre: Thug, Terrorism, Disturbed Loner?

 
 
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 01:57 pm
@ehBeth,
Yes indeed; here is some more detail:

Quote:
There are both state and federal laws that prohibit hate crimes, but proving a motive or bias is very difficult. Any type of crime can warrant some form of punishment, from fines and short prison stays for misdemeanors to long term imprisonment for felonies. Once it has been determined that a suspect willfully committed an offense, proof must be given indicating the deed was motivated by a particular bias to prove that it was a hate crime. When this is proven, the severity of the crime automatically increases. Any punishment that would have been given out for a wrong doing will also increase if it is shown to have been driven by hatred.

The punishment for committing a hate crime is harsh because while most crimes are only directed at an individual, hate crimes are committed against an entire segment of the population. A burglar who breaks into a random home does so for personal gain, and usually doesn’t even know who lives in the home they are invading. Conversely, a person who chooses a victim based on a particular bias is singling out a characteristic that is common to a particular group of people. The judiciary branch has cracked down on these types of crimes in the hopes of deterring people from committing them. There have been many disputes about whether or not this practice is legal, and the matter even reached the United States Supreme Court. Their decision was that it is legal to increase penalties for hate crimes and that it does not violate the Constitution.
http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/punishment-for-hate-crimes
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 08:09 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Federal hate crime law in the U.S. does address crimes committed on the basis of racial bias (as well as on the basis of religious bias, sexual orientation bias etc.).

Can you read where I said the laws on murder ? Have you ever seen a court charge written up as killing a white or a black ? You are talking about separate charges .
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 08:11 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Was the Fort Hood shooting an act of terrorism?

Anyone for stupid questions ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 08:16 pm
@ehBeth,
Has everyone lost the ability to read ? The charge of murder has no reference to the colour of a persons skin . Now stop imagining all sorts of BS and read what I am writing .
0 Replies
 
Banana Breath
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 09:17 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Have you ever seen a court charge written up as killing a white or a black ?


The charges do indeed include such language.
The wording in a hate crime charge is typically something to the effect of "Killing an African-American man solely because of his race" as you can see in the official Government press release by the FBI in the prosecution of a hate crime, which uses phrases such as "to cause and attempt to cause bodily injury to African-Americans." The very title of the article is: "Two Mississippi Men Plead Guilty to Committing Hate Crimes Against African-Americans ."

https://www.fbi.gov/jackson/press-releases/2012/two-mississippi-men-plead-guilty-to-committing-hate-crimes-against-african-americans
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 09:21 pm
@Banana Breath,
Journalists are not what they used to be, and journalists were never all that knowledgable about the law.

Headline writers are even worse.
Banana Breath
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 10:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Ah little twit grasshopper, that is not a news outlet, it is the FBI. Never heard of them? It figures.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2015 10:36 pm
@Banana Breath,
The FBI does not write articles, they issue press releases. I get what I deserve for assuming that you know how to use your words.
CoastalRat
 
  5  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 07:22 am
I'm not sure why people seem to have trouble understanding what Ionus is writing. Roof has been charged with 9 counts of murder, not 9 counts of murdering black people. The race of the victims will not be on the indictment in SC since murder is murder.

Now if/when he is charged on a federal indictment for hate crimes, I am supposing the race of the victims will be mentioned. I admit to not being an expert on this though.
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 07:50 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The FBI does not write articles, they issue press releases.

Try reading what was actually written above, silly grasshopper:
Quote:
the official Government press release by the FBI in the prosecution of a hate crime, which uses phrases such as "to cause and attempt to cause bodily injury to African-Americans."


Much of your problem is that you yap your nonsense without actually reading anything, which explains why you're in a constant state of ignorance.

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 08:37 am
@CoastalRat,
CR, THANK YOU ! At least someone understands my point, though as it has been pointed out to me the federal charges will contain ref to race as they have to prove a racial motive .
0 Replies
 
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 08:42 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
I'm not sure why people seem to have trouble understanding what Ionus is writing. Roof has been charged with 9 counts of murder, not 9 counts of murdering black people. The race of the victims will not be on the indictment in SC since murder is murder.

Merely because the crime occurred in South Carolina does not mean that race of the victims will not be noted, nor does it mean Roof will escape hate crime prosecution. Roof will likely face charges under state murder statutes, federal hate crimes, and civil charges for violation of civil rights. Race will be a part of indictments in the phases when it is relevant to the charges. At the state level in SC, the most explicit descriptions of race and racial hate motivations can be expected in the civil charges. An example of a comparable document can be found at the Southern Poverty Law Center website regarding the Deryl Dedmon hate crime prosecution:
http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/case/Complaint____The_Estate_of_James_C._Anderson_ex_rel._v_.__Deryl_Dedmon_Jr..pdf
This includes such language as
Quote:
"After a night of drinking, seven white teenagers, primarily from Rankin County, set out on a mission to "f**k with some n****rs" in Jackson Mississippi. They found Mr. Anderson, a black man, in a motel parking lot in Jackson."
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 09:19 am
@Banana Breath,
Nobody is saying that he will escape hate crime prosecution. In the murder indictment, it will simply read that he is being charged with 9 counts of murder. IT WILL NOT READ 9 counts of murdering a black person.

As you noted, the racial aspect WILL be a part of any hate crime indictment and civil rights violation charges. All Ionus stated was that the murder indictment would not mention race because it is not relevant for the murder charge. (His motive will be brought up at trial certainly, and the racial element will be addressed there.)
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 09:29 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

I'm not sure why people seem to have trouble understanding what Ionus is writing. Roof has been charged with 9 counts of murder, not 9 counts of murdering black people. The race of the victims will not be on the indictment in SC since murder is murder.

I think we all understand the letter of what he wrote. The question first posed is more to the purpose. Why is he standing on a soap box screaming because Firefly quoted an article that included "black"? One that is not linquistically incorrect as I read it? Here is the line:
Quote:
Dylann Roof, 21, is charged with the murder of nine black people in a historic Charleston church

I read this as he is charged with murder and the people were black. It could be that Ionus is like a grammar nazi arguing whether the word data is signular or plural. "Exactly where is the adjective? Is the charge "murder of nine black people" or is it "murder" and the rest clarifies the sentence? I guess that is one way to read his objection.

The other way, the way I read it based on his lack of grammar nazi tendences in the past, is that he wants to remove the racial component of the crime. Then Roof is just another nutcase killing people for unknown reasons. Maybe the voices in his head, maybe he was bullied, but not because he was a virulent racist fed on a subculture of white supremecy out to start a race war. That's the gist of Max's question. So what is the answer? Why does he want to do that? Why do you think he wants to do that?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 09:34 am
@engineer,
Precisely.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 08:18 pm
@engineer,
I made the point because once upon a time you wouldnt get charged with murdering a black person . It is important because now we are all equal under law . To distinguish that murder victims were black will to some diminish and to others enhance the murder aspect . If I was the reporter I would have written charged with the murder of 9 people who were black attendees at a bible study group at the oldest black church in the USA . Unfortunately reporting is all about cramming as much as possible into the smallest space, and facts are a secondary consideration .
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:51 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
I made the point because once upon a time you wouldnt get charged with murdering a black person . It is important because now we are all equal under law . To distinguish that murder victims were black will to some diminish and to others enhance the murder aspect .

And the state charges in this case aren't the murders of 9 black people, they are simply the murders of 9 individuals.

But, while people are all equal under the law, all crimes are not equal, all murders are not necessarily regarded equally. Some classes of murder victims--like police or correction officers--allow for harsher penalties than when ordinary civilians are murdered. The same is true when the motive for the crime is hatred or animus toward a particular group on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation--these hate crimes carry harsher penalties to provide a stronger deterrent to their commission, and to afford better protection for vulnerable groups.

It isn't just that the 9 people murdered were black, it's also that they were murdered by an admitted Southern white supremacist who wanted them dead because they were black--the motive was rather exclusively related to racial animus--this massacre couldn't be a clearer hate crime. Those are important facts in this case--particularly in light of this country's past history of slavery, segregation, and terrorist oppression of blacks by white supremacist groups like the KKK., and by continuing racial conflicts and tensions, and evidence of continuing discrimination.
Quote:
If I was the reporter I would have written charged with the murder of 9 people who were black attendees at a bible study group at the oldest black church in the USA . Unfortunately reporting is all about cramming as much as possible into the smallest space, and facts are a secondary consideration .

If you were a reporter and had written it that way, you would have omitted the major racial dimension and motive in this case--the reason those 9 people were killed, why they are dead. The killer has admitted his acts and his racially biased motives, and those are the facts in this case--why would you, as a reporter, want to pretend otherwise by omitting that information? This isn't a whodunit--we know who did it and why--he not only confessed to authorities, and left behind a racist manifesto Web site, he also voiced his racist motives to a surviving witness during his murderous shooting spree.

In this particular case, a federal hate crime conviction, which seems likely in this case, would be mainly symbolic because the punishments on the state level really can't be enhanced--not with 9 murder counts. He faces either the death penalty or life in prison without parole--you can't inflict any harsher punishment on him, he will spend the rest of his life in prison, he will die in prison, either of natural causes or an execution, with or without the addition of federal hate crime charges. Personally, I hope this murderer will enter guilty pleas, in exchange for avoiding the death penalty, to spare his victim's families and their community the ordeal of a trial, and to deprive him of any further notoriety and attention.

But I do believe that we've finally begun a meaningful and important discussion regarding race relations in this country--one that seems more honest and open than we've had in a while. I don't want to see that diminished or watered down. Those 9 people didn't die simply because they were attending a bible study group in a historically significant black church--they were cold-bloodedly murdered by a white supremacist who came into their spiritual space to unleash a blood bath to show that black lives don't matter, that they deserve to be taken and cut down, even in the most sacred of places. We should unflinchingly face the racist reality of what has occurred, and not try to downplay why these individuals died, if we really want to heal the racial divisions and wounds that continue to fester in this country as a result of an ugly racial past that isn't entirely behind us.

Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:37 am
@firefly,
Quote:
If you were a reporter and had written it that way, you would have omitted the major racial dimension and motive in this case--the reason those 9 people were killed, why they are dead. The killer has admitted his acts and his racially biased motives, and those are the facts in this case--why would you, as a reporter, want to pretend otherwise by omitting that information?

You are assuming that is all I would write . I would then go on to say these people were murdered because the killer was a racist and thought he was starting a race war, that he had pretended to be friendly and in the most barbaric way had used their non-racist acceptance of him to aid his cold blooded murder of nine innocents . The addition of Federal hate crime charges are essential to reflect the vile nature of his treachery, racism and cowardly acts .
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2015 04:43 pm
I thought it important that Joe Biden gets mentioned here for this

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — The historic African-American church in South Carolina where nine people were killed during a Bible study is again the scene of farewells by family and friends for one of the victims.

A funeral was held Sunday for DePayne Middelton-Doctor at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston. The 49-year-old pastor and mother of four returned to her childhood roots in the AME faith this year after attending a Baptist church.

The funeral came hours after Vice President Joe Biden made a surprise appearance at morning worship services. He received a standing ovation after reading a scripture passage.

Biden said Sunday it was not his first visit to the historic church and that he knew the Rev. Clementa Pinckney, the pastor who was among those slain earlier this month.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2015 08:56 pm
http://amultiverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015-06-26-Deathflag.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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