Charleston Church Massacre: Thug, Terrorism, Disturbed Loner?

@maxdancona,

Why wasnt he charged under terrorism laws ? Why do you think it matters what skin colour his victims have, it is murder pure and simple . The charge read out in court will state people, not black or white .

Quote:

Was 9//11 just a murder to you?

Was WW2 just a peace action to you ? See, two can play stupid games like that .

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I'm not sure that much of anything is gained by calling this massacre "terrorism". Yes, it targeted innocent civilians, as is the case in acts of terrorism, but those civilians weren't randomly chosen, they were specifically selected and killed because they were black and they were assembled in a historically significant black church.

This massacre can certainly be regarded as a terrorist act against the black population of South Carolina, but the specifically racial nature of these murders should not be diminished or obscured in any way by simply calling them 'terrorism'--these were hate crimes. The primary motivation for these killings was racial bias, and a murderous expression of white supremacy/superiority, attitudes directly related to our country's ugly past history of slavery and racial segregation, and biases which, unfortunately, often continue to exist today, and to fuel racism, and to find expression (and acceptance) in the public displays of confederate insignia and flags.

The nine racially biased murders fit the federal definition of a hate crime.

Quote:

Federal Hate Crime Charges Likely in South Carolina Church Shooting
By MATT APUZZO, MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT and RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA
JUNE 24, 2015

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department will probably file federal hate crime charges against the white man accused of carrying out a massacre at a storied black church in South Carolina, federal law enforcement officials said Wednesday.

Dylann Roof, 21, already faces nine counts of murder in state court, where he could be sentenced to death, and a conviction there would make federal action largely symbolic. It was not clear whether state prosecutors, who did not return calls seeking comment, would defer to a federal case.

Analysts at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have concluded “with a high degree of certainty” that Mr. Roof posted a racist manifesto online, which could be crucial to a hate crime prosecution, a law enforcement official said. The website was registered in February under his name, though the person controlling it tried the next day to make it anonymous.

read the rest here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/campaign-to-remove-confederate-symbols-from-public-lands-builds.html

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Why do you think it matters what skin colour his victims have

are you serious when you ask that question?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Refusing to refer to a man who goes into a house of worship and kills innocent people for a political cause as a terrorist because the attacker is white and Christian -- that's racism.

So the prosecutor is racist...are you sure ? What about refusing to publicise his evil ? Is that racist ? Just thought I'd ask while you are all warmed up and on your high horse...let me guess...I'm a racist is your next line .

2 Replies

@Ionus,

Federal prosecutors are preparing to file hate-crime charges against the accused. (South Carolina does not have a hate-crimes law.)

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Are you a reverse racist ? Black lives are worth more than white ? He killed 9 people . It mattered to him that they were black but I am not a racist and I refuse to play his game . You can if you want, but the law, under murder, does not distinguish race . Why is every one having such trouble with that concept or do people just like screaming racist at others and then thinking better of themselves ?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Federal prosecutors are preparing to file hate-crime charges against the accused.

And that is how it should be...murder charges plus separate charges for the racist act . Hell, get him for littering on the way out if it will get him convicted for more time, though I hope it will be the death penalty .

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@Ionus,

Quote:

You can if you want, but the law, under murder, does not distinguish race

Federal hate crime law in the U.S. does address crimes committed on the basis of racial bias (as well as on the basis of religious bias, sexual orientation bias etc.).

That's why drawing a swastika on a synagogue might well be considered more serious than just graffiti.

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@firefly,

However, murder is not a racial crime . All lives are considered equal under laws about murder . That is all I am trying to say .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Hate crimes are not separate charges, but an "enhancement" to an existing charge, like assault or murder.
What firefly said: a potential sentence for a hate crime assault would be higher than an assault with no hate crime enhancement.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Legally I have no idea how that would work . Wouldnt the "enhancement" actually be a separate charge based on their federally guaranteed human rights ? How do you enhance a charge ?

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@Ionus,

Was the Fort Hood shooting an act of terrorism?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Hate crimes are not separate charges, but an "enhancement" to an existing charge, like assault or murder.

When the feds charge Roof it will essentially be a hate crime charge even though they dont call it that. If they did not find the 9 killings to be a hate crime then they would not charge him at all. Claiming that hate crime charges are an enhancement is to misuse the word enhancement. They are separate extra charges for the same crime as had already been charged. And it is only a matter of time before the thought police make demonstrating hate a crime in and of itself.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Hate crimes are not separate charges, but an "enhancement" to an existing charge, like assault or murder.

Federal hate crime charges can be separate charges and not just enhancements. This particular murderer can be tried for 9 counts of murder on the state level and also for 9 counts of murder as a hate crime on the federal level--double jeopardy doesn't apply. In this instance, however, the state murder charges would qualify for the death penalty, but the federal hate crime charges would carry only a maximum punishment of life in prison.

That's why the filing of federal hate crime charges would be mainly symbolic in this case. It makes more sense to just try him for the murders on the state level where the option of the death penalty can also be used as leverage to elicit a plea bargain and spare the community the ordeal of a trial. It's hard to imagine what sort of defense could be mounted for this man--he's not legally insane, and these were cold-blooded, premeditated murders that he admits he commited.

2 Replies

@firefly,

Thanks. I already thought so, but now I understand it.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Was the Fort Hood shooting an act of terrorism?

The United States Department of Defense and federal law enforcement agencies have classified the shootings at Fort Hood as an act of workplace violence.

Terror act or workplace violence? Hasan trial raises sensitive issue
http://tucson.com/news/national/terror-act-or-workplace-violence-hasan-trial-raises-sensitive-issue/article_be513c51-a35d-5b4f-b3a0-13654f019ea6.html

The issue is totally unrelated to the topic of this thread.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Furthermore, it is probably easier to get a conviction on the murder charges. If he held the gun and pulled the trigger, that might be enough. But a conviction on terrorism or a hate crime could be much more difficult as prosecutors would have to prove what was going on in his mind at the time of the crime. If for instance his lawyer claimed that he was motivated at that moment by the belief that they were speaking too loudly rather than by their race, he might be found innocent of those charges.
Along a similar line, the famous gangster Al Capone was convicted and sentenced for tax evasion, although there was little doubt he committed many other crimes including murder. But better a conviction that imprisoned him than an impressive sounding charge that wouldn't have stuck.

1 Reply

@Banana Breath,

They shouldn't have any difficulty convicting him on either federal hate crime charges or state murder charges or both. He expressed his racial motivations during the shooting to a woman who survived--he allowed her to survive allegedly so she could bear witness to what he did and why he did it.

Quote:

Charleston Shooting: Federal Public Defenders Appointed to Represent Dylann Roof
by M. Alex Johnson

Federal public defenders have been appointed to represent Dylann Roof in connection with the shooting deaths last week at an African-American church in South Carolina — an indication that federal charges could be filed in addition to nine state murder counts.

A U.S. magistrate's judge in Charleston named two members of the public defender's office to represent Roof this week, citing a separate investigation the Justice Department opened after the shootings at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Roof, 21, hasn't yet been charged with a federal crime, but U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch has said federal authorities are investigating the shootings as a possible hate crime...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-shooting-federal-charges-likely-dylann-roof-n381326

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@firefly,

Quote:

The issue is totally unrelated to the topic of this thread.

It is absolutely relevant.

This church massacre was horrible. It was not just another act of murder. It was specifically designed to use fear to have a political impact. The stated purpose of this act was to start a "race war". This was not just another act of murder.

In spite of this, some people (for example Ionus) to call this just a "murder" without acknowledging the especially vile purpose, or horrible impact that this act of terrorism has.

The other killings (i.e. 9/11 or Fort Hood or the Boston Marathon) are relevant because in these cases, many people are happy to use the word "terrorism" to indicate why some killings are more than just "murder". The fact that the killer is White and Christian has something to do with it.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy in this.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

You can if you want, but the law, under murder, does not distinguish race .

the law provides an option for additional charges if this is assessed to be a hate crime

it does matter that he killed only black people - and had intent to only kill black people

2 Replies

Charleston Church Massacre: Thug, Terrorism, Disturbed Loner?

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