Escaping the family's past?

I can underline this, somehow at least.
I've done a lot of researches ... after my father died, more than ten years ago.


While there's no dark spot on his side of the family (or on my mother's side), I found some things about moredistant relatives (if at all: the husbad of my mother's cousin) which aren't so pleasant.

I didn't do it as therapy, though, but just by interest ... and since I got the "starting point" original sources.

I met man whose last name was Clemens. As I suspected, he was the great-great grandson of Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain. But he can't write a lick. My late fiance's family came over on the Mayflower, but she was hardly a Puritan. Former news correspondent Roger Mudd was related to the famous Mudd that rescued John Wilkes Boothe after he assassinated Lincoln, but he is not a Confederate sympathizer. I am related to Roge Vachon the hockey player but I can barely skate. I think I made my point.

Nick Fun- Did you know that the expression, "his name will be mud" refers to the aforementioned Mudd?

I think - and that really might be only because I am a German - that such as above is a bit differerent, different to living as a grandchild of Himmler or e.g. being related to someone being hanged here:



Another famous child of a Nazi wrote a book earlier to Himmler:
in 1987, Niklas Frank wrote a book about his father, Der Vater: Eine Abrechnung ("The Father: A Settling of Accounts"), which was published in English in 1991 as In the Shadow of the Reich. The book, which was serialized in the magazine Stern, resulted in controversy in Germany due to the vehement contempt and hatred expressed by the younger Frank toward his father.
(The German original shows a lot more hate than was transalted to English)
In 2005, Frank published a book about his mother - quite similr.
(Frank's book aren't easy to read - due to his style; but I liked him as journalist very much.)

I did know that Phoenix. I also know that Dr. Mudd was not the innocent, unknowing country doctor he's sometimes made out to be. He was a Confederate sympathizer who deliberately helped Booth escape.

And I'm related to Quisling, but I don't feel like betraying my country. :wink:

In my opinion, rather than German citizens search their 20th century genealogy, to see if there are any Nazis in the family tree, perhaps it would be more relevant to focus on how the United States did not vanquish the country, after winning the war, but saved them from Nazism.

I've read that Germans today would not make good obedient Fascists, possibly due to the efforts of de-Nazification by the Allies, after WWII, especially the Americans.

I don't think many Jews would have specific hostility to a descendant of any Nazi, since it was just that mentality of condemning descendants that made Jews "Christ Killers" for two-thousand years.

Anyway, I thought that today there's a nascent Jewish community in Germany made up of mostly Russian Jews from the former Soviet Union. In effect, in time, Germany will have Jewish citizens to learn to live with again. Who knows, maybe Germans can learn to like Jews?

Are you really this ignorant?

I'd only be guessing where my ignorance lies. Please educate me.

Germany has a very large Jewish population, around 200,000, and in
2004 the Russian Jews started settling into Germany. They're fully assimilated and integrated. There are numerous synagogues in Germany,
Holocaust memorials and reminders of the past. Jews and Germans are
friends, not all of them, but more than your generalized statement claims.

But then again, my jewish friends from Israel always claim that the
American jews are so overly dramatic.

I ran into far less anti-Semitism in Germany than I did in places like Tennessee and Alabama. Foofie, you need to get out more - and I don't mean a trip to New Jersey.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your comment correctly, but are you saying Germans today do like the Jews in their country? I think that's nice that Germans have Jews in their country that don't hold a grudge against their country, so to speak. That should be good for a positive image amongst the EU members!

I don't think American Jews are "overly dramatic." Is the thought of being "overly dramatic" because many American Jews will not buy a Volkswagon, nor visit Germany on vacation? Some won't even buy an American Ford car, since Henry Ford was a rabid anti-Semite. I don't think this comes from being overly dramatic, but rather from just not forgiving Germany and its culture for being so obedient during WWII.

Perhaps you've never seen the numbers tatooed on the arms of older Jews. There are many survivors in the U.S. (or Israel), and I've seen these tatoos. I doubt whether you would see these tatoos in Germany. They don't engender warm feelings for the country where they were inked on (maybe in a camp in Poland, and many American Jews have nothing to do with Poland either). No antagonism, mind you, to the current generation in Germany, but I believe the attitude of many American Jews is "live and be well, but far away." This is a take off on the "prayer for the Czar" in the musical/movie, A Fiddler On the Roof, and I think its an appropriate thought.

In effect, having the American culture (not everyone, by far, loves Jews in the U.S.) as a bench mark from the 1600's to the present (there never was a pogrom or Krystal Nacht in the U.S.), American Jews, I believe, see no reason to forgive Germany (the country) for its 20th century history. In fact, many American Jews have a bitter feeling, so to speak, of the WWII history in how much of Europe was willing to give Jews over to the Nazis. So, Germany shouldn't get too annoyed over the attitude of American Jews. The feelings are not just directed towards Germany.

If anything, I think of American Jews as just not being apologetic for being born Jews, in context of their persecuted history in much of Europe. The only country, I believe, American Jews have any warmth for, and it's not continental Europe, is the UK. It might just be because they speak English and fought the Nazis?

Many American Jews, and the majority are secular, don't have any involvement with Israel, other than a perfunctory trip at some point in their lives (the Orthodox community will more likely visit Israel and might attend a pro-Israel rally, but they are not the majority in this country, so far). Nor, do American Jews have much interaction with the Russian Jews that have come to the U.S., I believe.

Put simply, the vast majority of American Jews just identify themselves as Americans ("Jew" is not a nationality in America, as it was in the Soviet Union), and think of themselves as American as any other American would. But yes, they do sleep with one eye open, so to speak, since they know the history of Germany being the country in Europe that, in the nineteenth century, afforded German Jews the most economic/social/educational opportunities.

In my opinion, 200,000 Jews in a country is not a large population. There used to be two million Jews (25% of the population of NYC) in NYC alone. Now there are 800,000 and probably a total of a few million in the tri-State area (NY, NJ, Conn.). And, there are between five and six million in the entire U.S. Somehow, 200,000 just doesn't seem like a large population. But, then again, that's the population of Jews in Germany. Poland can't claim to have that many, and they used to have three million!

I can't argue with your observation. That might just be why most American Jews live in or around the large urban population centers. But, my point is not that Jews feel so "loved" in the U.S. They just know the U.S. has been good to them, and there is no reason to forget and forgive what occurred in Europe in the 20th century, specifically the driving force in Germany.

By the way, I don't care for NJ. But digressing, I do believe there is more than one popular culture in this country, and it was reflected in the last election, where the Blue States and the Red States looked like a map of the Civil War. So, I don't need to get out more, since I really don't want to go everywhere in this country.

The funny thing is, that I suspect that, many people feel that Jews are upset with any American anti-Semitism. If they were, they could have converted en masse, I believe.

No, anti-Semitism only bothers them when it limits their opportunities, I believe. I believe, they really are inured to contemptuous feelings, and likely don't even expect many/most folks to like them. That might just be what makes them different, since most groups want to be liked. Jews know their 4,000 year history. Need I enumerate all the peoples that had contempt for them? The list would be long?

However, there are a few groups that do seem to have a positive feeling towards Jews they meet (most likely the secular type), and many individuals find them interesting. Thank goodness Americans don't march in lock step (no reference to you know where, just an expression).

Well Foofie, I don't think you're a spokes person for American Jews,
as the feelings and sentiments you're portraying here, are not the same
that I have encountered living in various parts the United States and
having had Jews as friends and still being exposed to a large jewish community (despite my German background). Luckily, the animosity that is coming from you towards Germany, is not felt by too Jews throughout the world.

You for yourself have decided not to forgive the Germans, as have many
other nations decided not to forgive the United States for the atrocities
of war (Hiroshima, Vietnam, to name only two).

Speaking for yourself, I can appreciate your sentiments - speaking for
an entire jewish nation, you're so wrong and so blinded by your own
agenda.

By the way, one trip to the local synagogue would show you that 80 % of the cars outside are German manufactured, even the Rabbi drives
a Mercedes, but that's really besides the point.

Here again, you believe that the majority of American Jews has no involvement with Israel. The last bar mitzvah I attended with 300 +
Jews, they all seemed to have very close connections to Israel,
familial, religious, political etc. and these people came from all over the US.

Brooklyn is full of Russian Jews, how can there be no interaction with
American Jews?

As I said Floofie, I can appreciate your own sentiments, but these platitutes you're trying to convey, are simply not true.

I certainly make no apologies for being Jewish. As for "anti-Semitism only bothers them when it limits their opportunities", such is to laugh. You think it doesn't bother me and mine otherwise? Or is it perhaps the theory that all we are interested in is money? Such a lovely sentiment.

I don't even know where to begin on those incredibly generalized statements. Let's look at some facts: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

The move in population is probably due to the usual reasons that people move around a country, as in going where the jobs are, or where retirement is good.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Here's information on Jews in the Bay State, if you'd like to let some facts get in the way of your opinions:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/states/MA.html

Anyway, I have to get to work. But the generalities being thrown around are stunning.

Good statistics, jespah! I especially like the last one where it shows
the cooperation and close connection between the US and Israel.

Russian Jews speak Russian fluently, and are only learning English. American born Jews speak English fluently. Russian Jews live in an enclave of Russians (Jewish and non-Jewish). American Jews live outside these enclaves, or just have little to do with the Russian Jews and their cultural ways (entertainment in Russian nightclubs). Russian Jews tend to go to the public colleges where tuition is relatively inexpensive. American Jews tend to spend a lot of money to get their children college educated in private colleges.

You might not agree with these generalizations, but there's a statistical tendency here that you would admit to, if you were an American living in the NYC area.

Yes, Russian Jews in Germany likely have many relatives in both the U.S. and Israel, all of who came to a Bar Mitzvah you attended.

The Jewish population of the U.S. really reflects basically five waves of immigration; let me bore you:

First, Sephardic Jews living in Holland came to the U.S. in the 1600's. Very few comparitively in number, and they take a low profile.

Second, German Jews of a liberal bent, that came in the 1850's after the Revolution of 1848. They came the same time as German Christian families. Within two generations, many of these Jews intermarried into German Christian families. Today there are Christian families that know that a grandfather or great grandfather (or mother) was of German Jewish ancestory. Many of those remaining as Jews intermarried with Eastern European Jews that came a little later. They may more likely represent the Jews that live in smaller towns in the U.S., since a grandfather started a business there circa 1870 and today it still exists. They also are well represented in the professions. Jews of German descent in America tend to be upper-middle class or higher.

Thirdly, the Eastern European influx. Mostly from Czarist Russia, or Czarist Poland. The bulk of this immigration came between the 1880's and 1910. They were young people, oftentimes just married, or with one or two infants, escaping the Russian pogroms. The overwhelming bulk of American Jews, second or third generation born in the U.S., comes from this wave of immigration.

Fourthly, a post WWII immigration of survivors of WWII. Many of these are Orthodox, or Ultra-Orthodox. Very conspicuous obviously, but really I believe less than one million in the U.S.

And fifthly, the Russian Jews that originally came as the Soviet Union Refuseniks, and increased after the end of the Soviet Union.

O.K., what's my point? It is, I can only talk with any knowlege of the wave of Jews that came during Czarist times from Eastern Europe, mostly Russian Jews, that today are mostly secular, college educated, and living in or near the large urban centers. However, they do represent the vast majority of American Jews.

So, if you get invited to many Bar Mitzvahs, that's nice. The food is usually good. And, I would guess that most of the Jews and their relatives you are meeting are either Russian or Israeli Jews, and if American Jews, likely not the third generation American Jews. What I mean is that the only Jews today in Germany, I believe, came there fairly recently for economic opportunity. I believe, most third or fourth generation American Jews would not go to Germany for economic opportunity.

Did you ever hear the expression, "a rose, is a rose, is a rose"? I think many Gentiles subscribe to that expression when it comes to Jews: One Jew is as good as the next. Sorry, the pre-WWII German Jew was the aristocracy of Jewry in the world, and now they are mostly gone. So, please don't infer in behalf of German history that the Jews today in Germany are an equal replacement for the Jews in Germany that lost their lives or where chased out due to WWII. One day perhaps they will be, but the present Jews in Germany tend to be the proverbial "poor cousins" when compared to the pre-WWII German Jews! Amazing how so many people don't want to look back at that earlier community.

The attitude of any German, to point out how Jews live peacably in Germany today, as far as I'm concerned, has to be suspected of the self-serving purpose of trying to ignore the atrocity to German Jews during WWII, and/or to "whitewash" the German image for enhancing Germany's positive image in the EU.

Sorry to be such a Doubting Thomas, but let's be honest, Germany was no Disneyland for German Jews during the Nazi era. And, if Germany today wasn't such an economically successful country, how many Jews could it attract to settle there?

I would like to hear once an ounce of gratitude towards the U.S., from a German national, since the old East Germany, under the Soviets, never became what West Germany became. How about a little thanx to the Americans?