1
   

Escaping the family's past?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 04:29 pm
2PacksAday wrote:
while I have nothing against facts, often an unbridled opinion makes for excellent reading.

I tend to have the opposite reaction.

If there is one thing this forum does not have a shortage of, it is unbridled (unverified etc) opinion.
0 Replies
 
2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 05:01 pm
Very, very true.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:08 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:

It was necessary to point this out?


Well, I doubt that many would like if I name instead of the USA any other English-speaking country.

And someone working in Dublin wouldn't like if I said he worked in the UK.


O.K., O.K., you're correct.


You are making progress, Foofie. I hope that your Aspergers syndrome is only a mild case.


I have no idea if I would have been diagnosed, as a child, as having Asperger's?

I once took an online AQ (Autistic Quotient) test. I scored higher than the average autistic (high functioning one, I assume). So, I may have the traits, but I cannot claim to be an Asperger's individual.

Most people don't like to hear my candid, personal opinions. Most people are very socialized to not offend anyone. My feeling, as a student of history, there are many people that need to understand that some people will not, in their lifetime, change their opinions of historical occurrences. And, that can offend people, since some of us don't like negative opinions, especially if it goes against the current popular interpretation of things.

I think we need a thread about the European view of Iraq. That would be interesting.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:11 pm
Most students of history base their opinions on historical facts You, more often than not, tend not to. That is why you cannot expect your opinions will be taken seriously if you keep doing that.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:15 pm
nimh wrote:
Foofie wrote:
nimh wrote:
And how does this theory hold up with regard to the fact that only 41% of the world's Jews live in Israel[/url]? And a majority of the world's Jews thus do live amongst those others you refer to?

I am talking about the time Israel was birthed by the U.N.; most countries did not want any, or more Jews. Few believed, at that time, a Jewish community was an asset. In the 1940's anti-Semitism was still rampant in the U.S.; many colleges did not want Jews, or had a quota. There were still "restricted" hotels, country clubs. Corporate America hired few Jews, if any at all, in more than a few industries.

Perhaps, it has become fashionable, of late, to have a Jewish community in one's country? Who knows?

Hm. No doubt about the shameful institutionalised anti-semitism that was still widespread in America and Europe back then. But otherwise, eh.

I mean, if even now the majority of Jews lives outside Israel, surely that was even more true back when Israel was still just being settled by pioneers facing the desert. So the point about how the majority of Jews do in fact live among other nations in other countries holds up even more for back then.

I do agree with a lot you said in this post. About how the Europeans of 1945/46 were hardly eager to welcome surviving Jews back - plenty of horror stories from those times. About how anti-semitism is alive and well especially in more rural/conservative areas, and about how it is often part of the rejection of any kind of outsiders there.

I'd also echo the irony of the Muslim world having now taken over the brand and products of anti-semitism that were fostered for centuries in Christian Europe. Almost like a relay race yeah, except that I dont believe in any big plot behind it.

What I dont like is how you've played fast and loose with facts in this thread, making all kinds of assertions, some of 'em true, others demonstrably false. It's like you take these scatter shots, and invariably hit some good targets as well as some wrong targets. Makes me wish you'd spend some more time on checking and backing up your assertions, and then come back to make a more selective/informed argument.

What I also dont like is how you make these kind of generalisations and prejudices about whole peoples and nations that, IMO, WW2 should have made suspect forever, even as you demonstrate ignorance about those countries and peoples. Just my 2 cents.


I appreciate your analysis. But, what no one is picking up on is that one of the side-effects of a thousand years of European Christian anti-Semitism can really leave the recipients of such pariah feelings with little interest in 100% fact. Sorry, if this upsets anyone, but don't treat a group so poorly, for so long, and expect all of them to emerge totally logical in their perceptions. Who said, "How ye sow, so shall ye reap."
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:23 pm
that is of course right. but it is also right in the case of gypsies, basques, slovaks, ruthenians, lemkos, hungarians....etc...etc.... In human history most nations and ethnic groups have gone through persecution,oppression, suffering... Your binary vision of Jews = oppresed good group and The Rest = anti-semitic oppressors is neither accurate nor useful.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:41 pm
I agree with Dag on the irrelevance of this binary view. I shared it for a time when I was younger. I've learned a lot more about human history since.

Now I see thread diversions like this as belligerant ignorance typed, while I was interested in the original article.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:47 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
Most students of history base their opinions on historical facts You, more often than not, tend not to. That is why you cannot expect your opinions will be taken seriously if you keep doing that.


I don't want anyone to take my opinions seriously. I just want the reader to know I have them, and I see few will ask themselves the Socratic question, "Why does he feel this way?" By not asking the question, one can treat my feelings like a high school debating effort; no thought need be given to the cause.

That's another of my points, the generation alive as WWII ended, felt, again in my opinion, no collective guilt. No collective remorse. Nada!

In fact, I'm reading a book now, "Hitler's Beneficiaries - Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State," by Gotz Aly a winner of the Heinrich-Mann Prize, "Germany's prestigious history award."

In page 2 of his preface he writes, "People often talked about how they had suffered from food shortages in 1946-47. 'We were well off during the war,' they complained. 'Food deliveries always went smoothly.' It was the 'organizational incompetence of the Allies' after the war that 'made us go hungry."

Many Germans not in the war were used to getting frequent packages mailed to them from their relatives. Booty from the plundered countries/people.

The Nazis maintained a sort of welfare state at the expense of the invaded countries. The accepting mindset, I don't believe, included any collective guilt, nor remorse for the Holocaust. They just admitted it was wrong to do.

That generation that lived then seemed to exhibit a collective self-centeredness and feeling of entitlement, in my opinion, naturally.

Don't think I am demonizing Germany, nor the generation alive during WWII. I only read about it. I believe there were too few Jews in Germany before WWII for the average German to even notice that they were all gone (other than the people that lived in those cities that had large Jewish communities) after the war.

But, don't get me started on Poland. They did not need to be taught anti-Semitism, like Germany needed to be taught prior to WWII. No, as I've heard from Poles (Jewish) that lost their entire families during the war, Poland was quite aware of the demise of their Jewish community (three million; 10% of the population). I don't know how Poles felt after the war, but I've been told that for hundreds of years in Poland, Jews were taunted, "one day we'll live in your homes; we'll own your furniture." Now, I wasn't there, but I continually hear that Poland really despised their Jewish brethren (to the point I'm told to teach their dogs to chase Jewish children going to school; reminds me of stories of the Deep South).

So, don't worry about my facts, focus on the feelings, and what might have elicited them.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 07:07 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
that is of course right. but it is also right in the case of gypsies, basques, slovaks, ruthenians, lemkos, hungarians....etc...etc.... In human history most nations and ethnic groups have gone through persecution,oppression, suffering... Your binary vision of Jews = oppresed good group and The Rest = anti-semitic oppressors is neither accurate nor useful.


Far be it for me to deny anyone their feelings. And, I believe Russia still is aware of losing over 20 million citizens in WWII.

I just think that while many people suffered under the Nazi onslaught, from just the European Jewish perspective, the Nazi onslaught was the perfect storm in the eyes of those other Europeans that survived. It got rid of those Jews. Again, my opinion.

It's not that the rest of Europe were anti-Semitic oppressors. They just tended to be anti-Semitic, but not oppressors (they were too busy trying to survive themselves). Again my opinion.

The fact that many people suffered under the Nazi onslaught does not make the Holocaust anything other than what it was - planned extermination. Just a well planned Final Solution. Were there any other targets receiving such good planning? I don't know. They can build their own Holocaust memorials, and lament their own losses.

And, I don't even think European Jews were the oppressed good group. Not being allowed to own land, or go to most universities surely helped evolve a group of people that did not fit in anywhere other than a ghetto or poor village (outside of Germany). The Holocaust was the culmination of a thousand years of non-assimilation in a continent that often the citizens were illiterate, and hateful of any outsider. Jews were the outsider. The fact that Jews had lived so well in 19th century Germany really is incongruous for history to note. Like I said earlier in this thread, I believe many American Jews sleep with one eye open.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 07:21 pm
2PacksAday wrote:
There is a Jewish community in Jonesboro Ark...just a few miles south of the Mo border....a very "rural" area not known for it's acceptance of other cultures....always struck me as odd, but they have been there since the 1880s. And yes, if the name sounds familiar this is the same Jonesboro that was all over the news in the late 90s, because of a school shooting.

I've enjoyed this entire thread, from Walters initial post {I often wonder about that very thing, parents/children of infamous personalitys, and how the cope.} to Foofie's overall viewpoint...his opinion....while I have nothing against facts, often an unbridled opinion makes for excellent reading.


There is also a Jewish community in Miami. Today Miami is very Cuban, with many other Latinos. The Jewish community gets along very well with the Cuban community. I believe the reason is that Jewish Cubans got along very well with the entire Cuban community in pre-Castro Cuba. That good relationship came to Miami, plus Miami was heavily Jewish during that initial fleeing to Miami. They got jobs, etc. and started a new life. I'd guess a helping hand to the Cuban exiles was not forgotten.

It makes for an interesting story that I never saw documented?

Have you noticed I sound like a different person responding to you? Must be we both Pledged Allegiance the same way at the beginning of each school day:

With one hand over one's heart, and facing the American flag on the classroom wall, " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 07:33 pm
Foofie wrote:
Also, I cannot think vitual friendships are real on the internet. I know many would disagree with that thought, but I think, at best, the internet is like a big cafe, somewhere in the ether, and one can talk to someone on any subject, enjoy the discussion, but then go home to sleep, and one did not make a friend. That to me would be illusory.


Foofie wrote:
So, don't worry about my facts, focus on the feelings, and what might have elicited them.


Do you see any contradiction, Foofie? First you tell us that people you converse with on the internet mean little to you. Then, you say we should ask about why you feel a certain way, rather than talking to you about facts.
0 Replies
 
2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 07:56 pm
Quote Foofie

Have you noticed I sound like a different person responding to you? Must be we both Pledged Allegiance the same way at the beginning of each school day:

With one hand over one's heart, and facing the American flag on the classroom wall, " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


Heh...heh...yes I remember those days fondly, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 08:34 pm
Foofie, this is a KNOWLEDGE EXCHANGE FORUM. Not feelings exchange forum.If you haven't noticed, this thread is in HISTORY forum of able2know. HISTORY. Why the heck should your feelings be the central point of this thread, that was not started a) by you or b) about you.
THere are psychology related forums, feel free to post your feelings there.

Meanwhile, your facts are so warped I don't even know where to begin. The Poland thing....is just lamentable. Please tell me, what do you know about the history of the Polish? You wanna hear a story of a nation that has suffered more than most in European history? Read about the Poles! Poland was occupied during the war. As there were collaborators, there was a huge movement against the war, against anti-Semitism. Poles were among the most heroic soldiers of the WWII... But this is useless. You are not interested in history. You seem to only be interested in yourself and your feelings.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 08:36 pm
Foofie wrote:
2PacksAday wrote:
There is a Jewish community in Jonesboro Ark...just a few miles south of the Mo border....a very "rural" area not known for it's acceptance of other cultures....always struck me as odd, but they have been there since the 1880s. And yes, if the name sounds familiar this is the same Jonesboro that was all over the news in the late 90s, because of a school shooting.

I've enjoyed this entire thread, from Walters initial post {I often wonder about that very thing, parents/children of infamous personalitys, and how the cope.} to Foofie's overall viewpoint...his opinion....while I have nothing against facts, often an unbridled opinion makes for excellent reading.


There is also a Jewish community in Miami. Today Miami is very Cuban, with many other Latinos. The Jewish community gets along very well with the Cuban community. I believe the reason is that Jewish Cubans got along very well with the entire Cuban community in pre-Castro Cuba. That good relationship came to Miami, plus Miami was heavily Jewish during that initial fleeing to Miami. They got jobs, etc. and started a new life. I'd guess a helping hand to the Cuban exiles was not forgotten.

It makes for an interesting story that I never saw documented?

Have you noticed I sound like a different person responding to you? Must be we both Pledged Allegiance the same way at the beginning of each school day:

With one hand over one's heart, and facing the American flag on the classroom wall, " I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."




So foofie went to school after 1956...
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 09:27 pm
really? i would have hoped high school.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2007 09:59 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Foofie, this is a KNOWLEDGE EXCHANGE FORUM. Not feelings exchange forum.If you haven't noticed, this thread is in HISTORY forum of able2know. HISTORY. Why the heck should your feelings be the central point of this thread, that was not started a) by you or b) about you.
THere are psychology related forums, feel free to post your feelings there.

Meanwhile, your facts are so warped I don't even know where to begin. The Poland thing....is just lamentable. Please tell me, what do you know about the history of the Polish? You wanna hear a story of a nation that has suffered more than most in European history? Read about the Poles! Poland was occupied during the war. As there were collaborators, there was a huge movement against the war, against anti-Semitism. Poles were among the most heroic soldiers of the WWII... But this is useless. You are not interested in history. You seem to only be interested in yourself and your feelings.


I'll tell you what I think I know about Poland. They wound up speaking a language that is very close to Russian, but it is written in Latin characters and their religion is Catholic, not Orthodox Chrisianity, like Russia. This relates to the history, I've read, that either Germany or Russia was traipsing through their backyards for many centuries.

What I find interesting about Poland, and its prior large Jewish community, was that the Jews there didn't seem to adopt much of the Polish culture, as the Jews did in Russia, or Germany? Russian Jews did adopt much Russian cuisine, the music, dance (see the movie Fiddler on the Roof). During WWII, Russian Jews were in the Russian military.

Somehow Jews in Poland remained quite insular? Why, I don't know? Possibly the two groups were too different? But, it didn't help for any ecumenical feelings, between the two groups.

Regardless, the original purpose of this thread was in pointing out that there are Germans today that are now looking into their family's past during WWII. And, they are finding things that they have to reconcile in their own feelings. Yet, this thread, which I used to ventilate my own feelings has been criticized as feelings based on non-fact. I understand, it was all a bad dream. By the way, who's living in the homes of the three million Holocaust victims from Poland? I would guess the homes were demolished in memory to the victims. (I made a joke.)

I guess if one has a high ranking Nazi in one's family tree, one's feelings are interesting. Since my family tree doesn't have any historical figures, my feelings are just of no interest. But remember, the original purpose of this thread was to show not historical facts, but a German having to reconcile any feelings about the family's past. The facts that generated any feelings were really self-evident.

I really shouldn't ventilate my feelings on this subject, unless I'm speaking to like minded people, and they do exist. I suspect many people know there are like minded people with my opinion, but that's an uncomfortable thought, perhaps. My apologies to anyone's sensitivities on the subject. Forget my opinion. Think happy thoughts.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2007 10:04 am
Foofie wrote:
Forget my opinion.


Okay, it's forgotten.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2007 05:41 pm
foofie wrote :

Quote:
My apologies to anyone's sensitivities on the subject.


i really don't see for what you would want OR should apologize for .
you expressed your feelings/thoughts/perhaps frustations - that's what we are free to do imo .



as i posted earlier :

"we couldn't choose where we were born" , a jewish friend said to me - and i was born in germany .
hbg
0 Replies
 
 

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