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Escaping the family's past?

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Aug, 2007 12:54 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:


No. Was he an orthodontist in Manhattan?


Well, not really. He was the first to publish a book above the 'Jewish State' and is known in the Jewish world as the "founder" of modern Zionism.


Every time Gentiles start relating Israel to any Jew they meet, I wonder whether many in the world would just want all Jews to just go to Israel and get out of everyone's way.

Those who are Europeans, may not understand that as strange as it seems, the U.S. seems to value the contribution of American Jews. Not everyone, but many. It also correlates, I believe, to socio-economic class.

So, unfortunately I can't relate well to the present day European feelings of "we all are concerned for all." What, to me, smacks of hypocrisy is that today's Europe is so loving to all, and strangely it all evolved after so much of Europe became Juden Frei!
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Aug, 2007 12:54 pm
old europe wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
btw,old europe, LOVE your signature!!! :wink: Laughing


Oh yes, I think it is a good signature.

I try not to get all excited about it though.

I'm afraid of what would happen if I did.......


Very wise! My mother would be proud of you.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Aug, 2007 12:56 pm
I'm stopped at The Happy Wanderer .... even if it was to satisfy some prejudicial wishes.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Aug, 2007 03:25 pm
I like Old Europe's continually interesting avatar...
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 07:45 am
Re: Escaping the family's past?
Walter Hinteler wrote:
A friend of my wife has as great-great-...mother quite famous German female writer and poet - actually, she's from a (noble) family with a good dozen of famous persons in the past (and present).

Since she's just a normal person, this name was kind of burden for her - she got mobbed due to it over years in her job.


Others have more difficulties:

in this week's Jewish Chronicle is an interresting report about

http://i7.tinypic.com/6gurjac.jpg


The reference to her family being "noble" (I believe that means aristocracy) might have a different inference to non-Europeans.

Or, at least to many Americans, it can be misinterpreted as pretentious to point out, since the U.S. at the early point of making George Washington the first President had to come to grips with the whole concept of an aristocracy. He did not want to have an aristocracy in this new country.

Many Americans might find the current news of the British Royal family interesting, but I believe not the way so many people in the UK or the Commonwealth countries do.

Many Americans, I believe, might just roll their eyes, at any reference to a family's aristocratic past. The U.S. has this obsession with being born equal (we may ultimately, in our lives' efforts, see we are not all equal, obviously). The concept of aristocracy is alien to the American culture, and we just don't relate to it with the same deference often found in Europe.

European history too often shows the aristocracy were the cause of much suffering of the masses. Thinking of aristocratic families as special just alienates many Americans, and makes them think Europeans haven't really learned their history lessons, so to speak, I believe.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:00 am
Well, we don't have nobilty here since 1919. The former nobilty-prefixes are part of family name's now.

However, many of our famous German poets, writers became members of the nobilty: von Goethe, von Schiller, etc. .

I mean, of course they could try nowadays to get their name changed at the registry office ...
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:14 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, we don't have nobilty here since 1919. The former nobilty-prefixes are part of family name's now.

However, many of our famous German poets, writers became members of the nobilty: von Goethe, von Schiller, etc. .

I mean, of course they could try nowadays to get their name changed at the registry office ...


Here in the U.S., we usually don't hear of von Goethe, but just Goethe, etc.

I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, this is a remnant of making sure everyone knows that one isn't a descendant of peasants.

The U.S. never had peasants. We do have pheasants; they are birds.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:20 am
Well, "Goethe's" name actually is 'von Goethe' - whatever he's called where ever.

It has nothing to do with peasants (we don't have farmers here, people farming are still called peasants).

(I'm from a family of free peasants, and can follow the family line back to 1287.)
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:57 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, "Goethe's" name actually is 'von Goethe' - whatever he's called where ever.

It has nothing to do with peasants (we don't have farmers here, people farming are still called peasants).

(I'm from a family of free peasants, and can follow the family line back to 1287.)


By the way, did you know that Eastern European Jews only had surnames starting sometime in the nineteenth century when the Czar mandated that all Jews take on a surname? Since German Jews were considered the aristocracy of the Jewish people, many Russian Jews then adopted German Jewish names, or made a little joke, by adopting a German Jewish name that implied they didn't live in a ghetto or poor village. So someone might adopt the name Schoenfeld (Sunnyfield) for example, or Schoenberg (Sunnytown).

However, as I've seen, Russian Jews that are now coming from Russia have Russian names, not these German Jewish names. I assume someone Russianized the family name?

And some (not many) American Jews Anglicize their names here, usually for "business" reasons, so Stein can become Stone, or Smith.

My point? Jews of Eastern European descent didn't, in the past, seem to have that Christian trait of great concern over their family name and its history. That might change, since, I believe, American Jews seem to often be using WASP's as their role model for being an American.

If you don't know what a WASP is: White Ango Saxon Protestant.
In my own opinion, they made this country what it is today: A great Protestant nation.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 09:16 am
I don't think your analysis about Eastern European Jews is correct. But it my be valid for Russia.

We aren't really thaaat backwood here in Europe and know what WASP means.

However and by the bye: I always smile a bit about this term: usually Angels as well as Saxons are and have been white as well as their Anglo-Saxon "children" in Great Britain. And the Anglican Church is a Catholic church, not Protestant ...
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 01:39 pm
Foofie wrote:

If you don't know what a WASP is: White Ango Saxon Protestant.
In my own opinion, they made this country what it is today: A great Protestant nation.

Well, WASPs, as Americans define then, are not even the largest identifiable ethnic or social group in this country. Ethnic Germans outnumber them, as do the Irish - who REALLY made America.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 01:54 pm
Although Foofie wrote:

I don't believe everything I read on the internet, or books, since everyone has a viewpoint to espouse.


... you gave me here, George, the opportunity to re-post this pic again :wink:

http://i13.tinypic.com/4ku1t38.jpg

Irish, he said.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 02:00 pm
But it takes so little to "give you the opportunity" ! Laughing

You will surely notice Walter that the relative totals for the Irish and Italians together are roughly equal (actually a bit greater than ) the total for Germans, who are really just a stabilizing element for our more volatile strains.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 03:22 pm
Gawd forbid, if foofie had an ounce of German blood in him - the same,
the utter shame would be too much for him.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 05:53 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Gawd forbid, if foofie had an ounce of German blood in him - the same,
the utter shame would be too much for him.


Here's the sad truth (said in jest of course): Ashkenazi Jews all likely have some German genes in their bodies (note I don't get into that whole "blood" lexicon), since when Jews started their Diaspora out of Jerusalem with the destruction of the 2nd Temple (circa 60 A.D. - I like A.D., not A.C.E.), the first place they settled? Yep, you bet, Germany. Now remember the German tribes were still pagan then, and they likely looked upon this rag tag group of wanderers as odd fellows, to say the least. But, they allowed them to settle there, and they prospered.

Possibly centuries, if not a millenium later, did these Jews in Germany move over to Russia and Poland for whatever reason?

O.K., what's the point? Somewhere on the internet I did read that the maternal "X" chromosome of Ashkenazi Jews show a high tendency to be similar to a European woman's DNA, while the "Y" male chromosome in many Ashkenazi Jews is very similar to that of Middle Eastern males (not Jews mind you, just Middle Eastern.

In effect, if any credence is given to this, the likely explanation is that groups of Jewish males came to Europe to start some trading (post), and married a local girl. Yes, Ashkenazi Jews may all be descended from Gentile women on the maternal side. Ashkenazi Jews would then be all hybrids.

I give it credence, regardless, since there is always a Jewish boy that just doesn't find Jewish girls interesting; perhaps, too much like a sister, aunt, etc., so the thought of Jews that settled in Germany marrying a Shiksa (which I was told just means pagan maiden) likely occurred, especially in the pre-Christian era when there was no Christian anti-Semitism (just Jews were odd fellows, but "they make good husbands.")

There's another reason I believe Germans and Ashkenazi Jews mixed. I read somewhere that 30% of German males have "male pattern baldness" by their early 30's. This is a comparatively early age. Many Ashkenazi Jewish males have male pattern baldness at an early age. Mediterranean men tend not to have it at such an early age. Sephardic Jews tend not to have male pattern baldness.

By the way, I remember from world history class that Germany was fully Christianized as late as the 1300's. In effect there was a long time that pagan Germans did not subscribe to European Christian anti-Semitism. I'd guess that made for more inter-marriages.

Also, as I said above, that there are Jewish young men that one may think is "running" from his mother (and therefore marries a non-Jewish young lady); there is also the thought that many a Gentile/Christian young lady marries a Jewish young man since it's possible she has had enough with men like the one's in her family. I suspect this accounts for many inter-marriages today, from both perspectives.

Digressing; yes, German-Americans are the largest white ethnic group in the U.S.; and, their ethnicity is shown by ???? Actually, they are just American in everyone else's eyes. The only difference is, some are Catholic and some are Protestant, but those are not ethnic groups. A German surname is considered like a WASP name; it connotes someone who can handle responsibility and hard work.

Hey, that's really how the U.S. is heading in its sociological divisions. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, other. It seems to be all about religion in the U.S., not ethnicity anymore.

Jews marry many Catholics, and the children just get gifts for two holidays in December. When Jews marry Protestants, it might be two professionals, but that's my own prejudiced stereotype of those marriages. Fewer, compared to the Jewish/Catholic unions.

But ethnicity is losing its grip on the imagination of the people, I believe. Those who have an ethnic identity say it, in my opinion, almost as though they feel obligated for the sake of past ancestors, but they really live in a world where ethnicity plays a continuing lesser role. This is only my opinion.

And to all a good night.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 06:04 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't think your analysis about Eastern European Jews is correct. But it my be valid for Russia.

We aren't really thaaat backwood here in Europe and know what WASP means.

However and by the bye: I always smile a bit about this term: usually Angels as well as Saxons are and have been white as well as their Anglo-Saxon "children" in Great Britain. And the Anglican Church is a Catholic church, not Protestant ...


I only meant Eastern European as the area under the Czars. I keep forgetting there were other parts of Eastern Europe (or was there?).

European geography was not taught that well, I believe.

I think we spent more time learning about South America? Quien sabe, porque?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 06:20 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
Foofie, I believe there is a lot of education ahead of you. If you wish to defend the Jewish and their history, you need to know it in the first place. Theodor Herzl is one of the key figures in modern Jewish history. And the concept of the chosen land is one of the foundations of judaism.


The following is my own opinion, and it would sound very offensive to many Jews, but again, in my own opinion, the land mass today called Israel, which is the small size of the U.S. state of New Jersey, is just a booby prize for the Jewish People.

Sort of a peace offering after the Holocaust. Yes, I know the whole concept of Israel, as the Home for the Jewish People, goes back farther, and religious Jews lived in Israel since the times of King David, and there was a Zionist movement that predates WWII.

Regardless, the fact that it is in the middle of a desert, surrounded by 300 million hostile Arabs, makes me think it is not exactly Manhattan real estate that was given to these initial survivors of the Holocaust.

And, if anti-Semites still would like to see Jews wiped off the face of the Earth, can anyone think of a less fortified country? No Pyrenees mountains, Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean. Not exactly a natural fortress!

So, if Jews are going to survive as a religion for the future, they need to be spread out. Jews in the U.S., Jews in France, Jews in the U.K., Jews in the Commonwealth countries, Jews in Hungary, Jews in Scandanavia, Jews in South America. And, as we are all happy to hear, there are Jews once again in Germany.

Do you notice I put Jews in countries with large Caucasian populations? My answer to that: Didn't they have enough problems???
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 06:35 pm
Foofie wrote:
If you don't know what a WASP is: White Ango Saxon Protestant.

Always fun when someone so demonstrably ignorant tries to lecture other people..
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 07:02 pm
nimh wrote:
Foofie wrote:
If you don't know what a WASP is: White Ango Saxon Protestant.

Always fun when someone so demonstrably ignorant tries to lecture other people..


It's not that I lecture; I don't converse. It's a trait of Asperger's.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 10:27 pm
Foofie wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
Foofie, I believe there is a lot of education ahead of you. If you wish to defend the Jewish and their history, you need to know it in the first place. Theodor Herzl is one of the key figures in modern Jewish history. And the concept of the chosen land is one of the foundations of judaism.


The following is my own opinion, and it would sound very offensive to many Jews, but again, in my own opinion, the land mass today called Israel, which is the small size of the U.S. state of New Jersey, is just a booby prize for the Jewish People.

Sort of a peace offering after the Holocaust. Yes, I know the whole concept of Israel, as the Home for the Jewish People, goes back farther, and religious Jews lived in Israel since the times of King David, and there was a Zionist movement that predates WWII.

Regardless, the fact that it is in the middle of a desert, surrounded by 300 million hostile Arabs, makes me think it is not exactly Manhattan real estate that was given to these initial survivors of the Holocaust.

And, if anti-Semites still would like to see Jews wiped off the face of the Earth, can anyone think of a less fortified country? No Pyrenees mountains, Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean. Not exactly a natural fortress!

So, if Jews are going to survive as a religion for the future, they need to be spread out. Jews in the U.S., Jews in France, Jews in the U.K., Jews in the Commonwealth countries, Jews in Hungary, Jews in Scandanavia, Jews in South America. And, as we are all happy to hear, there are Jews once again in Germany.

Do you notice I put Jews in countries with large Caucasian populations? My answer to that: Didn't they have enough problems???



YOUR OPINION IS FACTUALLY WRONG. Did you read at least those excerpts about the history of Israel that I copied and pasted up there for you? You couldn't have. Israel, the state, was not "given to Holocaust survivors" - what nonsense! Israel was in making for decades before... Read up before you voice your opinion.
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