Escaping the family's past?

Hatred, based on past misfdeeds - no matter how horrible - on the part of those who, themselves did not experience them, directed at others who, themselves did not perpetrate them, is a curious thing. It does not flow naturally from the human spirit. It must be renewed and rekindled based on repeated choice. I suspect this process is far more destructive to the spirit of those who follow it than to those that are the object of it.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Just curious, foofie. Do you feel the same way about Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Turkey, Russia, or any other country that has a history of genocide and bloodlust, or are you particularly set against Germany only?

How nice; you're "just curious." I don't care for "curious;" it can be used as an excuse for being intrusive. My feelings on the above are really non-sequitors, nor are they anyone's business, to use the common vernacular.

Start a thread about those countries, perhaps. This thread was specifically about Germany and its past, in context of German citizens, I thought.

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Nods to George.

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Foofie wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
Just curious, foofie. Do you feel the same way about Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Turkey, Russia, or any other country that has a history of genocide and bloodlust, or are you particularly set against Germany only?

How nice; you're "just curious." I don't care for "curious;" it can be used as an excuse for being intrusive. My feelings on the above are really non-sequitors, nor are they anyone's business, to use the common vernacular.

Start a thread about those countries, perhaps. This thread was specifically about Germany and its past, in context of German citizens, I thought.

i will not start a thread and i'll ask whatever is relevant.This is relevant, in the context of what we were talking about. It was a sincere question, your reaction is, well, your choice. Holocaust was not the only genocide on this planet. There are paralels to be drawn. On this thread or in real life. You can close your eyes to it. Your choice. I've no idea why question about other genocides makes you defensive and irritated, but luckily that's not my problem.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Hatred, based on past misfdeeds - no matter how horrible - on the part of those who, themselves did not experience them, directed at others who, themselves did not perpetrate them, is a curious thing. It does not flow naturally from the human spirit. It must be renewed and rekindled based on repeated choice. I suspect this process is far more destructive to the spirit of those who follow it than to those that are the object of it.

very true. it is, indeed, a choice. can be used constructively, or destructively.

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Foofie, vile actions and rage at the perpetrations of that have made the world go around, not only in Germany and whatever block you live on with all that diversity, but through history.

Your assumption that those here don't know about the atrocities of the holocaust is ignorant. I saw photos of Dachau when I was about nine or ten, around 1950, and they informed my life. I still have the US government booklet. No, I didn't personally live through that, but I've known people who did.

People are not monolithically evil, and thus there is hope. Casting a whole place as evil is interesting in itself, a kind of warding off that any of that lurks in the hearts of other than the pegged-for-evil. Such as Us, Everyman.

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NickFun wrote:

I met a man whose last name was Clemens. As I suspected, he was the great-great grandson of Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain. But he can't write a lick.

Sounds like he might have been pulling your leg, or perhaps he was a great-nephew. Sam and Olivia had four children, a son that died in infancy, then three daughters, two of whom never married or had children {at least none that I am aware of}...and both passed away before reaching 30. The remaining daughter {Clara} had one child, a girl, and she in turn never had any children...she died in the 1960's....sadly ending Sams direct bloodline.

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Foofie wrote:

nimh wrote:
"Germany's Jewish population [..] has swelled to more than 200,000, according to estimates by the government and Jewish groups.

Last year, twice as many Jews, 20,000, settled in Germany as in Israel, according to Jewish groups."

Source: International Herald Tribune, 2005

Hey, NYC in the 1950's had two million Jews out of a population of eight million. Today NYC has 800,000. And 200,000 is a lot?? Oh, it's Germany. For that country, in the 21st century I guess it's a tsunami of Jews!

Jeez Louise Foofie, New York's total population is 8,2 million, Berlin's total population is 3,4 million.

Perhaps instead you'd care to look at how they compare proportionally. If there are 800,000 Jews in NYC, they make up 10% of the population. 200,000 Jews in Berlin make up 6% of the population. Not exactly an earth-shattering difference: and it's New York you're comparing Berlin with here, the Jewish capital of the world. More Jews live in the New York metropolitan area than in Tel Aviv; failing to compare with it on this count doesnt exactly say much.

In other comparisons, however, Berlin now has a higher percentage of Jewish population than either the Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Chicago or Boston metropolitan areas. In fact, the New York and Miami metropolitan areas are the only ones in the US with a higher percentual Jewish population than the city of Berlin has.

Foofie wrote:

The fact is, if the U.S. can still be condemned today for dropping the bomb on Japan, [..] why can't people still condemn Germany for the Final Solution (Germany the country, not Germany the people)?

Well, thats the point isnt it? Yes, Germany the country can be - and is, of course - blamed for having instigated and led the Holocaust; just like the US as a country is responsible for the nuking of Hiroshima.

Hell, Germans have long and intensively learned about the responsibility of their country in this mass murder - Germany has undertaken soulsearching about the genocide that their country led in a way that the inhabitants of no other country that committed genocide has ever done.

But what you have been doing in this thread is very much condemning Germany the people - today's Germans.

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nimh wrote:

But what you have been doing in this thread is very much condemning Germany the people - today's Germans.

Exactly that is what makes more than just wondering.

But there've always been these and those under God's blue sky - to quote the PA of the late President of Central Council of Jews in Germany who just read this thread when being on a short visit here.

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ossobuco wrote:

Casting a whole place as evil is interesting in itself, a kind of warding off that any of that lurks in the hearts of other than the pegged-for-evil. Such as Us, Everyman.

It's interesting that few can truly understand my feelings. Germany is not evil. I just don't want to have anything to do with the country. Sort of like no "absolution." That means, even as a country, with not a scintilla of evil, I want nothing to do with it nor its citizens.

Stated again, Germany is not evil! I just don't want to have anything to do with that country or its citizens (I'm repeating myself obviously), since there are other countries in the world that don't have a recent history with the same agenda of European domination and enslavement/extermination of supposed inferior groups. Don't I have the right to feel more friendly towards other countries? What is the need to have me accept Germany today? Not wearing a Roman collar, I don't give absolution.

I think the object lesson I'm trying to send is: O.K. Germany, you're a nice country now. Even doing trade with Israel; even maintaining a Jewish community; even giving reparations to families of victims; even outlawing Nazi propaganda; however, there are other cultures in the world without the albatross of being the driving force of WWII's Final Solution. So, I'd rather not learn German, rather not visit Germany, rather not buy a Volkswagon. Just a personal choice.

The real question that was never asked in this thread (surprisingly) was, "What would it take for you, Foofie, to feel warmer feelings towards Germany today?"

The answer is simple, the same thing a Jew has to do to make others feel totally comfortable with himself/herself - assimilate. What am I saying? Silly as it sounds: Give a deadline where English becomes the official language of Germany. Drink ale, not beer. Start to enjoy bland British food. Protestants join the Anglican church.

Get it? That's right. Anglicize the country. Shed the old Teutonic culture. In effect, vaccinate the country against a relapse to gloryifying the old Teutonic Heros (at the expense of other groups) in some future economic inflation (like in the Weimar Republic).

Sounds silly, right? Sure it's silly, since Germany is not about to give up its language and culture. Why should they. It is loved by its people. And, in the same way, I can't give up my distaste for the Teutonic culture.

By the way, not wanting to be an ingrate, I do thank my grandparents for coming to the U.S. around 120 years ago. That was the smartest thing they ever did. And I do appreciate being an American. And I do thank America for giving my family a country like the U.S. to live in. And I do support the Administration in its goals in Iraq. And I do believe (even as an atheist) that if there is a god, the U.S. has a covenant with Him. And, if Jesus ever comes back, He'll come to the U.S. first. I believe Jesus is a Republican! God Bless America!

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Foofie wrote:

Protestants join the Anglican church.

That would be funny: they would go back and join a Catholic church Laughing

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nimh wrote:

But what you have been doing in this thread is very much condemning Germany the people - today's Germans.

That's only a perception. If you read minds you'd know I am not condemning Germany, nor its people. Let me spell it out: I have just been trying to say I have a distaste for Germany and its culture. That means I don't buy a German made car; I don't drink a German brewed beer; I don't visit Germany and play tourist in a castle on the Rhine!

The fact that I avoid all things German is not condemning its people. For example, if I don't care for the French culture, and wouldn't visit France, then would I be condemning the French people? No; I would just be keeping my tourist dollar out of the French economy. And, yes, I have a distaste for France and its culture too! Not because of the actions during the Vichy government in WWII, or the crowd screaming, "Hang Dreyfus." But, because France seems to be too critical of the U.S., considering the U.S. saved the French nation two times during the 20th century. In my opinion, this might reflect some sort of ingratitude and/or self-centeredness? So, as an American, I have a distaste for France and its culture. No condemnation of its people. The French economy just won't get my tourist dollar. Nor, will I buy French wines, etc., etc.

In effect, the complete and correct sentence, to describe my comments in this thread would be that I am condemning the German people to not having me as a friend. That's all. I can't be a friend to Germany. They should look elsewhere for friends. I hope that meets with everyone's approval, unless of course I don't get the right to choose my friends, as others do? That too might be true in the minds of some people.

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You cannot be friends with (just as an example) Walter here or Calamity Jane because they are...German? Isn't that the same principle on which Jewish people were selected before the Holocaust? Of course, this is an exaggeration, but the principle of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity is the same, don't you think? I don't mean for this to come across as harsh, I can well appreciate your strong feelings about Holocaust. I just think generalization (all of Germany, all of German people) are dangerous.

...I have nothing against the not buying a VW or not learning German etc... it was just this one thing about rejecting possibility of friendship with individual Germans that struck me.

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Foofie wrote:

In effect, the complete and correct sentence, to describe my comments in this thread would be that I am condemning the German people to not having me as a friend. That's all. I can't be a friend to Germany. They should look elsewhere for friends. I hope that meets with everyone's approval, unless of course I don't get the right to choose my friends, as others do? That too might be true in the minds of some people.

This sounds like a very primitive emotion that everyone has to a certain degree about cultures different than their own. Most people try to overcome such emotions by educating themselves.

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dagmaraka wrote:

You cannot be friends with (just as an example) Walter here or Calamity Jane because they are...German? Isn't that the same principle on which Jewish people were selected before the Holocaust? Of course, this is an exaggeration, but the principle of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity is the same, don't you think? I don't mean for this to come across as harsh, I can well appreciate your strong feelings about Holocaust. I just think generalization (all of Germany, all of German people) are dangerous.

...I have nothing against the not buying a VW or not learning German etc... it was just this one thing about rejecting possibility of friendship with individual Germans that struck me.

The one thing I learned in a Sociology course was, people act the way they think other people expect them to act. What that means, sociologically speaking, is we do give credence to many stereotypes, because we don't like to be invisible.

So, I am wary of people who come from countries/cultures/social classes that expect me to have preconceived ideas of who they are. So, I tend to observe macho behavior from Southern Europeans or Latins, etc., etc., probably because they think I'm expecting that behavior.

Anyway, I do understand everyone is an individual. I just feel more comfortable with Americans; actually native born Americans, not even immigrants. I feel more comfortable with Americans that are second or third generation born here, as opposed to the children of immigrants. I feel more comfortable with Northerners. I feel more comfortable with urban dwellers. I feel more comfortable with college educated people. I feel more comfortable with people that speak a standard English as opposed to a street English. I feel more comfortable with political conservatives than political liberals/progressives. So, I live in a very circumscribed world.

Why should I feel uncomfortable with anyone?

Also, I cannot think vitual friendships are real on the internet. I know many would disagree with that thought, but I think, at best, the internet is like a big cafe, somewhere in the ether, and one can talk to someone on any subject, enjoy the discussion, but then go home to sleep, and one did not make a friend. That to me would be illusory.

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a) I just want to mention that I created this thread.

b) there are only a few native American members within the A2K-membership of some tenthousands. Most Americans here are children of immigrants.

c) many replies on this thread are by immigrants or even (European) foreigners.

You didn't bother at all about that.

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wandeljw wrote:

Foofie wrote:
In effect, the complete and correct sentence, to describe my comments in this thread would be that I am condemning the German people to not having me as a friend. That's all. I can't be a friend to Germany. They should look elsewhere for friends. I hope that meets with everyone's approval, unless of course I don't get the right to choose my friends, as others do? That too might be true in the minds of some people.

This sounds like a very primitive emotion that everyone has to a certain degree about cultures different than their own. Most people try to overcome such emotions by educating themselves.

No, I can't agree. At least in the U.S., we have a civil right to choose our friends. Please don't stand in judgement of my exercising my civil rights.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

a) I just want to mention that I created this thread.

b) there are only a few native American members within the A2K-membership of some tenthousands. Most Americans here are children of immigrants.

c) many replies on this thread are by immigrants or even (European) foreigners.

You didn't bother at all about that.

I didn't mean Native American as the American Indian. I meant Americans whose family has lived in the U.S. for several generations.

Let me explain, the term Yankee in the South means a Northerner. The term Yankee in New England means someone who is at least the third generation born in the U.S.

Most Americans are either Yankees by that definition or the family has at least two generations born in the U.S. Once your parents are born here, one is not the child of immigrants.

I don't care who replies on this forum. I just was explaining I have more in common with Americans whose families have been here more than two generations. That's because, in my opinion, even when a child is born in the U.S., and his/her parents came from elsewhere, the home life may still reflect a "world" that doesn't have the same American mores that another more "assimilated" family has.

It's almost as though there is the belief that there is no real/true American culture that Americans assimilate into?

I see such an attitude with some immigrants, where the U.S. is just a good job opportunity, and they hope to live in some immigrant enclave their entire lives. This can be done with satellite tv, a thriving immigrant newspaper industry, and immigrant supermarkets. More assimilated Americans may look upon it as a slow learning curve, that only the children will have a chance to learn.

Far be it for me to care who is on this forum.

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adopting foofies standards , i should probably stay away from the U.S. and it's citizens .
from what i recall - and still saw happening in the U.S. even after we came to canada - the natives and afro-americans were not exactly treated kindly in their country (i wonder how many natives and afro-americans lost their lives due to various hostilities ?) .
it would NEVER cross my mind to blame decent americans for those atrocities . loading the sins of the forefathers on their childern is not a very good (christian/jewish/muslim ?) idea in imo .

as a matter of fact , we enjoy travelling to the united states and have almost always met welcoming and friendly people - can'r really recall that any american ever gave us a hard time .
we enjoy cruising and again have met many americans on those cruises , usually having meals together , enjoying excursions , shows or just lazing on deck - haven't been shunned once for having come from germany as far as i know .
perhaps should mention that we are canadian citizens , but haven't been able able to shake our accent completely - so we are sometimes asked if we are from germany , holland , sweden or even jamaica (!) .

i recall speaking to a jewish women (a professor at queen's university) who compiled a short history of german immigrants who came to this area after WW II .
both her own and her husbands family had fled germany during the 1930's - so i was a little apprehensive and guilt-ridden when she first interviewed me .

she set my mind at ease by saying something like :
"look , as children we didn't have much choice where we wanted to be born . whether we were born in germany , someone else in the soviet-union or others in the united states - there are plenty of skeletons in the cupboards everywhere.
it's really up to us as parents to ensure that OUR CHILDREN will not be brought up in an atmospere of either hatred or fear or where they will be loaded down with the sins of the forefathers .
sure , it's important to know history , but it's even more important to know how to live with your neighbour (by which she didn't just mean the neighbour next door . hbg) in peace and to foster communication with all PEOPLES no matter their race , colour or religion " .

it turned out that we became pretty good friends , greet each other as friends , inquire after each others children - and we don't have to point accusing fingers at each other .

it may have been considered a joke by some , but : "make love not war" and "peace , sister/brother ! " are more important expressions to me than : "it's YOUR fault ! " .
PEACE !
hbg

Escaping the family's past?

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