9
   

Who ordered the construction of the Berlin Wall?

 
 
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2009 02:05 pm
Quote:
Historians have long argued over whether East German leader Walter Ulbricht or his Soviet counterpart Nikita Khrushchev was ultimately responsible for the construction of the Berlin Wall. A newly discovered Russian document from August 1961 provides some answers.


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Source for phtos: DPA (own collection)



Full story at Spiegel (International)


Quote:
Never before had a regime locked up its own population. The border between the two Germanys had been sealed off for some time, but when the Wall went up, the loophole into West Berlin, through which East Germans had been able to flee to West Germany, was also closed.

From then on, anyone who wished to leave East Germany was risking his or her life. At least 136 people died in the attempt to surmount the Berlin Wall. They were shot by border guards, ripped to shreds by landmines or they drowned in the Spree River.

Was this sinister method of border control created at the urging of Ulbricht, because his state of workers and farmers was threatened by a brain drain, as former Soviet diplomats claimed after German reunification? Or did Khrushchev order the Wall's construction, as former senior members of the East German communist party, the SED, claim?

For years, historians have been trying to clear this contradiction, and now an answer may be in the offing. It appears in a Soviet document that Matthias Uhl of the German Historical Institute in Moscow has discovered: a previously unknown record of a conversation that took place between the two leaders on Aug. 1, 1961.

 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2009 02:15 pm
I would have laid money on Kruschev. He was into everything in those days. At least they kept him out of Disneyland.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2009 02:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
good stuff
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2009 06:53 pm
Walter, do you know something about the "official" DDR explanation of the wall? I remember vaguely something about currency exchange and the East Germans not wanting to "subsidize" the BRD.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2009 07:39 pm
I thought Germans are more interested in Europe as a united entity, rather than what might be a maudlin article for history buffs?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:44 am
@fbaezer,
Well, the GDR always said that it was "an anti-capitalistc wall". Kind of preventing the bad West to enter ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:45 am
@Foofie,
What, Foofie, do you think the purpose of the "German Historical Institute in Moscow" to be?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  5  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 01:26 pm
@Foofie,
Has anyone told you lately, Foofie, that you're a pain in the ass?

You seem to have this unreasonable animus against history in general and recent historical events in particular if they don't relate somehow to the Holocaust. To call a documentation of an important historical fact "a maudlin article" simply shows gross ignorance.
Francis
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 01:36 pm
MA, about foofie wrote:
simply shows gross ignorance.


Which foofie never gives up doing..

Culture is like jam, the less we have the more we spread it.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 06:49 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Merry Andrew wrote:

Has anyone told you lately, Foofie, that you're a pain in the ass?

You seem to have this unreasonable animus against history in general and recent historical events in particular if they don't relate somehow to the Holocaust. To call a documentation of an important historical fact "a maudlin article" simply shows gross ignorance.


A maudlin article, in my opinion, for a Germany that is looking forward, and assisting the rest of Europe to move forward into this new century. That was the context of my opinion relating to "maudlin." It can naturally be of great interest to many; however, I believe I do have a right to an opinion, if I give my context. You need not agree with me. I am not arguing with you or anyone on this. Notice that I said the article was maudlin, not those that enjoyed it.

And, it is not the Holocaust that piques my interest most, but the general observing of Gentiles and their mostly bourgeois attempts at being bon vivants, even though many tend to be exceptionally sensitive, and that negates a truly bon vivant persona, in my opinion. I used to watch birds. Birds get along much better than humans, I believe.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 04:28 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

A maudlin article, in my opinion, for a Germany that is looking forward, and assisting the rest of Europe to move forward into this new century. That was the context of my opinion relating to "maudlin." It can naturally be of great interest to many; however, I believe I do have a right to an opinion, if I give my context. You need not agree with me. I am not arguing with you or anyone on this. Notice that I said the article was maudlin, not those that enjoyed it.

And, it is not the Holocaust that piques my interest most, but the general observing of Gentiles and their mostly bourgeois attempts at being bon vivants, even though many tend to be exceptionally sensitive, and that negates a truly bon vivant persona, in my opinion. I used to watch birds. Birds get along much better than humans, I believe.



I kindly ask you to read the post - and might be the tags - before you respond.

This thread wasn't intended to deal with Germany/Europe moving forward or about bird watching.

Sorry, if such disappoints you, but it really is only about history and (probably new) historical facts.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 12:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Why might the article not have given President Reagan credit for asking for the wall to be torn down, directing his request to the Soviets? The article was slanted, in my opinion, inasmuch as it avoided that reference, as to what the U.S. perceived the wall's purpose was. Perhaps, that would have been a small thank you for the Berlin airlift. In effect, in my opinion, the article, just focussing on the two German governments, neatly avoided referencing the positive effort that the U.S. had during those times for West Germans.
Merry Andrew
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 02:10 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Why might the article not have given President Reagan credit for asking for the wall to be torn down, directing his request to the Soviets?


Are you really that dense or is this a sly role you play?

The article is not concerned with how or why the wall was torn down. It deals only with the erection of the wall, something with which Ronald Reagan had no connection. He was busy making Grade "B" movies at the time.

I can't believe you posted that.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 02:13 pm
@Merry Andrew,
I added a "building the Berlin Wall" tag.

That might help Foofie understand what the article was about.
fbaezer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 02:14 pm
@ehBeth,
You are being too condescendant on that A-hole.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 02:15 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I added a "building the Berlin Wall" tag.

That might help Foofie understand what the article was about.


I'm not sure that the words "Foofie" and "understand", used in such close proximity, might not constitute an oxymoron.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:21 pm
I am officially changing my thoughts relating to "maudlin" to "boring for 'many' Americans." However, if any Americans find this article of significance and of interest, I applaud those individuals for their wide scope of interests. But, do not forget, Foofie found it boring, as I do with many topics about Europe, especially that dynamic country the article is about.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:22 pm
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:

You are being too condescendant on that A-hole.


Por favor. No me molesta.
0 Replies
 
marsz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 12:54 pm
I think the article was superb. It gives credit to the finest people in Europe-perhaps in all of European History--the German Junkers! We must not let minor occurrences blemish the true genius of Germany!!
dogofwar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Aug, 2012 03:21 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Amercans have always played the role of provider, and teacher for Europe ever since we won the war. every one knows this, why not just admit the fact that America alone stands head and shoulders above all the powers that be. we have shown ourselfs to be kind and giving to a fault. why trash the Americans as you do and by the way I like B moves.
0 Replies
 
 

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