Escaping the family's past?

what you believe and what's reality are two very different things. YOU may have problem with going to Germany, but many (I won't say most, i will not generalize where there are no facts and data) American Jews do go to Germany, for visit OR for work. I myself know a few. My boss is a rabbi (I'm not religious. Nor German) who works in Germany frequently. He lost family in Holocaust. My other two friends, probably third generation if not fourth, went to live in Germany for a year. My Israeli friend goes to university there because Germany offers free education to Israeli citizens. I could go on and on and on. What you want to be true does not make it so.

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CalamityJane wrote:

Well Foofie, I don't think you're a spokes person for American Jews,
as the feelings and sentiments you're portraying here, are not the same
that I have encountered living in various parts the United States and
having had Jews as friends and still being exposed to a large jewish community (despite my German background). Luckily, the animosity that is coming from you towards Germany, is not felt by too Jews throughout the world.

You for yourself have decided not to forgive the Germans, as have many
other nations decided not to forgive the United States for the atrocities
of war (Hiroshima, Vietnam, to name only two).

Speaking for yourself, I can appreciate your sentiments - speaking for
an entire jewish nation, you're so wrong and so blinded by your own
agenda.

By the way, one trip to the local synagogue would show you that 80 % of the cars outside are German manufactured, even the Rabbi drives
a Mercedes, but that's really besides the point.

Correct, I'm not a spokesman for American Jews, nor am I a spokesman for the "entire jewish nation" (what Jewish nation? Israel? I naturally have no involvement with Israel; I'm an American citizen; Israel is a nation state with its own citizens).

And you're correct that many Jews have no animosity towards Germany. I don't have animosity. I just don't have amnesia. And, Germany can live happily without my tourist dollar.

And, don't accuse me of having an agenda. I have no agenda. I just don't have amnesia nor rose colored glasses, so to speak.

And, it's nice of you to point out supposed American atrocities, considering Germany was really treated with kid gloves after WWII by the Americans. Is the word ingratitude appropriate? I say this because the U.S. would have likely lost over a million soldiers in storming the Japanese Islands to end WWII. That would have been better, in many people's opinion, than dropping the bomb. Not in my opinion, though.

Or, not trying to save the existing regime in South Vietnam was also wrong?

It's interesting, that with nuclear weapons making European wars obsolete, so many Europeans don't want to remember the past thousand years of European wars, including that silly war that ended in 1918. So, now so many Europeans point the finger at America as warlike, as though Europeans were little angels for the past one-thousand years. Ha!

But, back to the Jew topic. Am I wrong, or are there a few hundred million neighbors of Israel that would like to march those Jews into the sea? See, no agenda at all. Just not asleep, and I don't forget nightmares.

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no animosity? Laughing

that was funny.

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dagmaraka wrote:

what you believe and what's reality are two very different things. YOU may have problem with going to Germany, but many (I won't say most, i will not generalize where there are no facts and data) American Jews do go to Germany, for visit OR for work. I myself know a few. My boss is a rabbi (I'm not religious. Nor German) who works in Germany frequently. He lost family in Holocaust. My other two friends, probably third generation if not fourth, went to live in Germany for a year. My Israeli friend goes to university there because Germany offers free education to Israeli citizens. I could go on and on and on. What you want to be true does not make it so.

And why in heavens, would Germany offer free education to Israeli citizens??? Could this be based on guilt, or Germany has become philo-Semitic???

I don't want anything to be true. I only talk for myself, and I know for a fact there are like minded people. So, if there are Jews who need to go to Germany for work, or they find a good vacation deal there, or they go there for any other reason (including curiosity about the people that fought England and the U.S. in two world wars), I don't care. Just please don't imply that Germany and Jews can go together like a horse and carriage. My simple point is, for every American Jew that will vacation in Germany, I believe that there are a few more that just don't want to have anything to do with Germany. Simple?

Do you think all of the Brits think the V-2's were just an aberration of the war, or do some still not forget? Let's be intellecually honest, please. Not everyone can forgive Germany, especially many Jews, since what happened to Jews during WWII was a planned, well executed Final Solution.

To be totally candid, it is very offensive to think that a regime can plan and execute an effort to exterminate all the Jews in Europe, and then when the smoke clears, those silly Jews will be so grateful that no one is still hunting them, that they will all be only too happy to be friends again. Perhaps, in five-hundred years there won't be any Jews with my attitude. Sort of like few Jews get upset over the Spanish Inquisition ejecting Jews from Spain, after Jews were living there for 1800 years (300 years before Christ, Jews came to Spain). However, at this point in time it would seem like the object lesson, if a Jew says, "Gee those Germans are now great guys. Let me take a trip there" is, it's O.K. to kill Jews; they forgive you as soon as you stop killing them. That's my interpretation of Jews visiting, living, working in Germany today.

Like Marshal McCluhan said, "The medium is the message." So, my medium is I have nothing to do with Germany, because my message is, it's not O.K. to exterminate Jews, because they are not descended from tribes that settled in Europe in the Middle Ages, and are thought of as the perennial outsiders.

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yes, you do only talk for yourself, we can well see that. you talk from your head, having little clue about the social reality in germany today.

did you notice that German government is not Nazi anymore? Did you notice the long process of trying to come to terms with the past that most of today's German citizens have nothing to do with? Or are you going to blame them collectively for the wrongdoings of their parents and grandparents generation? Are you going to blame them for feeling guilty? Is it WRONG they offer free education to Israelis? It appears that no matter what they would do, you would hate it. That's irrational animosity.

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dagmaraka wrote:

no animosity? that was funny.

No animosity when no one tries to convince me that few Jews harbor antipathy towards Germany. Many do.

I don't think of Germany often. But, it's like an allergy. Talk to me about Germany, and I react. It's like saying I have animosity towards ragweed. Not at all. But put some near me though, and I sneeze, and eyes water.

Ragweed isn't evil. It's just ragweed. But don't try and convince me that neither I nor anyone else is allergic to it.

A lot of my feelings stem from the fact that, in my readings, about the attitude towards the Holocaust by Germans today, I've read that many/most will admit it was wrong. But their feelings end there, no remorse. No one is even asking for guilt, just perhaps a little remorse. Nyet! No remorse. It's almost as though the collective attitude is they shouldn't have been there to begin with - as though they were perennial outsiders that just happened to be in Germany, and it was wrong (but no remorse)? If you ever noticed an ounce of remorse, please advise! Perhaps, I've been reading the wrong autobiographies?

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dagmaraka wrote:

yes, you do only talk for yourself, we can well see that. you talk from your head, having little clue about the social reality in germany today.

did you notice that German government is not Nazi anymore? Did you notice the long process of trying to come to terms with the past that most of today's German citizens have nothing to do with? Or are you going to blame them collectively for the wrongdoings of their parents and grandparents generation? Are you going to blame them for feeling guilty? Is it WRONG they offer free education to Israelis? It appears that no matter what they would do, you would hate it. That's irrational animosity.

No, it's quite rational. No remorse = no foregiveness! If you ever spotted an ounce of remorse, please advise. I could have missed it, it went by so quickly. Guilt is different than remorse. Guilt is when someone realizes that they did something wrong, and it negatively effects their identity. Remorse is based on commiseration. Remorse is feeling one's pain. Nah! No remorse. Perhaps on an individual basis, here and there. But not a collective feeling (like the feeling of collective joy at the Armistice of WWI).

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no animosity...just....allergy?

Rolling Eyes

good luck, foofie. just in general.

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a rabbi walks into a bar with a huge parrott on his shoulder. bartender says "Where did you get that?" Parrott says... "Brooklyn, there's hundreds of them"......

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Foofie wrote:

So, if there are Jews who need to go to Germany for work, or they find a good vacation deal there, or they go there for any other reason (including curiosity about the people that fought England and the U.S. in two world wars), I don't care. Just please don't imply that Germany and Jews can go together like a horse and carriage.

"Germany's Jewish population [..] has swelled to more than 200,000, according to estimates by the government and Jewish groups.

Last year, twice as many Jews, 20,000, settled in Germany as in Israel, according to Jewish groups."

Source: International Herald Tribune, 2005

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Very well-written posts Foofie.

I believe that wisdom suggests that we consider seriously the human nature we all share. Human history is littered with conquest, oppression, massacres and exterminations -- no tribe or culture is entirely free of it. Moreover, what passes for historical virtue is very often only the lack of opportunity to oppress others.

In general the preoccupation on the part any culture, tribe, or nation that it is endowed with certain qualities or virtues, very strongly correlates with extreme brutality to others. That was true after the Reconquista in Spain; it was true as colonial Americans pushed out the native Indians; it was true as 19th century Britain exploited and oppressed Ireland; it was true during the Nazi horrors in Germany; and it has been true in the West Bank for the past forty years.

How much time is required to sanitize groups for the sins of their predecessors? On what basis can we assign guilt to Germans and absolve Americans and Englishmen for evils of the frontier or colonialism? For that matter, can we yet absolve Jews for the ravages inflicted by Joshua on Jerico?

It is one thing for individuals to remember injuries they have experienced themselves: quite another to focus on past injuries to other people with whom one has a cultural, religious or political connection. The latter very often leads to a mere repetition of similar crimes -- something the killers of the Provisional IRA had to learn in Ireland not long ago, and which Zionists should contemplate today.

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Besides that what was said above: I don't think, Foofie, that your knowledge in German history needs some udates.

Your "facts" need some updates as well.

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foofie wrote :

Quote:

I don't think American Jews are "overly dramatic." Is the thought of being "overly dramatic" because many American Jews will not buy a Volkswagon, nor visit Germany on vacation?

in our canadian town of about 120,000 inhabitants , we have quite a number of well-to-do jewish families (mainly business people and university professors) .
there are a fair number of them that don't see anything wrong in driving BMW AND MERCEDES automobiles - so i'm not sure that they are driving VW's .

we've been invited by jewish families , attented bar mitzva celebrations and a jewish wedding , and were always given a warm welcome .

unfortunately i also remember that when we came here in the mid-fifties , jews were NOT WELCOME at the local golf club . while i was was invited to join , i declined with thanks .
hbg

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Foofie wrote:

Russian Jews speak Russian fluently, and are only learning English. American born Jews speak English fluently. Russian Jews live in an enclave of Russians (Jewish and non-Jewish). American Jews live outside these enclaves, or just have little to do with the Russian Jews and their cultural ways (entertainment in Russian nightclubs). Russian Jews tend to go to the public colleges where tuition is relatively inexpensive. American Jews tend to spend a lot of money to get their children college educated in private colleges.

I am sorry, I did not realize that American Jews look down upon
Russian Jews. I have learned something new today.

Quote:

You might not agree with these generalizations, but there's a statistical tendency here that you would admit to, if you were an American living in the NYC area.

Yes, Russian Jews in Germany likely have many relatives in both the U.S. and Israel, all of who came to a Bar Mitzvah you attended.

I have lived in NYC and actually, the Bar Mitzvah I attended had no Russian Jews in it, what a ludicrous statement of yours.

Quote:

So, if you get invited to many Bar Mitzvahs, that's nice. The food is usually good. And, I would guess that most of the Jews and their relatives you are meeting are either Russian or Israeli Jews, and if American Jews, likely not the third generation American Jews.

Again, no Russians were present, and I was invited because it was my
godchild who celebrated his Bar Mitzvah. You probably cannot imagine
that, but the parents of this boy have chosen a German to be this
Jewish boys godmother.

Quote:

The attitude of any German, to point out how Jews live peacably in Germany today, as far as I'm concerned, has to be suspected of the self-serving purpose of trying to ignore the atrocity to German Jews during WWII, and/or to "whitewash" the German image for enhancing Germany's positive image in the EU.

Since you never have set foot into Germany, you certainly don't know
what you're talking about.

Quote:

Sorry to be such a Doubting Thomas, but let's be honest, Germany was no Disneyland for German Jews during the Nazi era. And, if Germany today wasn't such an economically successful country, how many Jews could it attract to settle there?

No one denies the Holocaust, and every German will live with that shame
for the rest of their lifes. Many Jews living in Germany were and are
foremost Germans and jewish secundary. It might be hard to understand for someone like you who has made his religion his ideology, but there
are plenty of Jews out there who identify with their country first.

Quote:

I would like to hear once an ounce of gratitude towards the U.S., from a German national, since the old East Germany, under the Soviets, never became what West Germany became. How about a little thanx to the Americans?

Why don't you thank the Americans?

Quote:

The German Government offered to let 160,000 Jews leave Germany if any country would take the them. They were first offered to the British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, who was negotiating with the Germans at this time. His objective was "peace in our time." Hitler saw this as a weakness and broke every treaty that was secured. However, Chamberlin declined to accept any Jews with the question "where would put we them?" The Jews were next offered to the United States. This was referred to Cordell Hull, Chief of the State Department at this time. Hull asked the same question "where shall we put them?" On behalf of the US Government he declined to accept the Jews. Roosevelt was privy to this decision and did nothing, but kept the truth a secret.

Source

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Foofie wrote:

Correct, I'm not a spokesman for American Jews, nor am I a spokesman for the "entire jewish nation" (what Jewish nation? Israel? I naturally have no involvement with Israel; I'm an American citizen; Israel is a nation state with its own citizens).

Please read my statement, all I said was "you are not a spokes person
for all American Jews" no more and no less.

Quote:

And you're correct that many Jews have no animosity towards Germany. I don't have animosity. I just don't have amnesia. And, Germany can live happily without my tourist dollar.

They do, yes!

Quote:

And, it's nice of you to point out supposed American atrocities,....

What do you mean "supposed" atrocities? Have you not seen pictures
of Hiroshima, of Vietnam?

Quote:

It's interesting, that with nuclear weapons making European wars obsolete, so many Europeans don't want to remember the past thousand years of European wars, including that silly war that ended in 1918. So, now so many Europeans point the finger at America as warlike, as though Europeans were little angels for the past one-thousand years. Ha!

Don't worry, we remember all European wars, it's part of our history
and our education. None of us are little angels, neither are you!

Quote:

But, back to the Jew topic. Am I wrong, or are there a few hundred million neighbors of Israel that would like to march those Jews into the sea? See, no agenda at all. Just not asleep, and I don't forget nightmares.

We all have our nightmares to bear, not just you. The very latest nightmare is Iraq.

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nimh wrote:

Foofie wrote:
So, if there are Jews who need to go to Germany for work, or they find a good vacation deal there, or they go there for any other reason (including curiosity about the people that fought England and the U.S. in two world wars), I don't care. Just please don't imply that Germany and Jews can go together like a horse and carriage.

"Germany's Jewish population [..] has swelled to more than 200,000, according to estimates by the government and Jewish groups.

Last year, twice as many Jews, 20,000, settled in Germany as in Israel, according to Jewish groups."

Source: International Herald Tribune, 2005

Hey, NYC in the 1950's had two million Jews out of a population of eight million. Today NYC has 800,000. And 200,000 is a lot?? Oh, it's Germany. For that country, in the 21st century I guess it's a tsunami of Jews!

What about Poland? They used to have three million, prior to WWII. How come they don't try to induce Jews to live there? Let's not talk silly, right?

Or, all the other European countries that had a Jewish population before WWII. Let's be intellectually honest; Israel exists because Britain, and the world, knew no country wanted any Jews back after WWII. It's real simple. Europe, in my opinion, suffers from a collective form of anti-Semitism for the last thousand years.

In my opinion, having Jews back in Germany has its purposes, and those purposes are not philo-Semitic, but to clean up the image of a country that wants to have a positive world image, and the Final Solution really made a mess of that world image.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

a rabbi walks into a bar with a huge parrott on his shoulder. bartender says "Where did you get that?" Parrott says... "Brooklyn, there's hundreds of them"......

A) "Parrott" has one "t."

B) Today Brooklyn has Asians, Russians, Blacks, Hispanics and Mexicans, still some Italians, and fewer Jews than it ever had. Update your joke.

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CalamityJane wrote:

Again, no Russians were present, and I was invited because it was my
godchild who celebrated his Bar Mitzvah. You probably cannot imagine
that, but the parents of this boy have chosen a German to be this
Jewish boys godmother.

I never heard of a Jewish godchild, unless one of the parents is a Christian? Godchild is a Christian tradition.

Let's not continue this discussion, since you claim I made my religion my ideology. What ideology? My choice not to forget the Final Solution after only 60 years is not an ideology. It's just not sugar-coating history just because the current people living in a country are innocent of the prior atrocity. That's not an ideology. Sorry if you don't like my focussing on history, but some people like to focus on events that happened.

The fact is, if the U.S. can still be condemned today for dropping the bomb on Japan, for the express purpose of saving the lives of American soldiers that would have had to storm the Japanese Islands, why can't people still condemn Germany for the Final Solution (Germany the country, not Germany the people)? How many Wermacht did the Final Solution save?

Do you get it? The Final Solution was pure blood lust! Why should any human being forget that? No condemnation of the people living today in Germany. May they all enjoy a lovely picnic in the Black Forest.

I'll just walk away from this thread (did someone say, "Macht Schnell?")

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Just curious, foofie. Do you feel the same way about Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Turkey, Russia, or any other country that has a history of genocide and bloodlust, or are you particularly set against Germany only?

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Thank you, Walter, for the link on Katrin Himmler.

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Escaping the family's past?

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