At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

msolga wrote:

I don't really want to get involved in another debate about gun ownership in the US. We all just keep saying the same things over & over again & I find that extremely frustrating & maddening.

I just want to say that I'm shocked & saddened at what's happened & wish it hadn't.

... & that I thought yours was a very good post, Aidan. Well said.

Yes

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kickycan wrote:

Is gun control really the main issue here? I mean, this person (or persons) just lost it and started killing innocent people for seemingly no good reason. I realize the easy access to guns allowed him to kill more people than some other methods might have, but the fact that we have the freedom to bear arms, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the reasons why this happened.

Do people snap and just go apeshit like this in other countries? Is this an American thing? It seems like every few months or so, another wacko snaps and starts killing people indiscriminately. If we could figure out why that seems to happen so frequently, you might have a starting point to preventing future massacres like this.

One of the few reasonable and thoughtful responses I've seen on this thread.

Hiya, Kicky.

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dagmaraka wrote:

oralloy, you'll only get yourself banned if you call people names. good luck with that.

Interesting thought. Since I am not the one who started the insults, I shall report the people who did.

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oralloy wrote:

dagmaraka wrote:
oralloy, you'll only get yourself banned if you call people names. good luck with that.

Interesting thought. Since I am not the one who started the insults, I shall report the people who did.

Oralloy, in the interests of full disclosure I must advise you that I have already reported you. Your tone is totally unacceptable, quite apart from the content of your ravings.

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Oralloy, I (and others) have commented on what you have written, not on you. I called what you wrote drivel, yes. However, I did not call you yourself an idiot, or stupid. See the difference?

The rules on this site ask people to comment on the contents of posts, not on the posters personal qualities.

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Dagmaraka just called me stupid... inadvertently... Shocked

Just kidding... Trying to lighten the mood a little.

Goodnight you all.

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Merry Andrew wrote:

Your tone is totally unacceptable, quite apart from the content of your ravings.

What exactly do you feel is unacceptable about my tone?

Something wrong with defending freedom in the face of freedom haters?

How exactly is support of freedom "raving"?

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dagmaraka wrote:

Oralloy, I (and others) have commented on what you have written, not on you. I called what you wrote drivel, yes. However, I did not call you yourself an idiot, or stupid. See the difference?

I think I do. I did not feel like you insulted me, and you are not one of the people I just reported.

I don't think your characterization of what I wrote as "drivel" is particularly accurate, and I think I addressed that when I responded to your post though.

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I can understand where the gun-control proponents are coming from. Take the guns away, and the problem is solved. Or at least, it will make it far more difficult for nut-jobs like the guy in VA to commit this sort of crime.

However, I see the other side too. I have a friend who owns guns, and from what he's told me, obtaining a gun legally is not easy, by any means. It's a long, time-consuming process. At the end of it, you are able to purchase a "registered" gun that is easily traceable to you.

The people who go through this process are generally law-abiding people who want to own a gun for recreational purposes (such as hunting or target practice) or for self-protection.

Unfortunately, it's much easier to obtain a gun the illegal way -- on the black market. So you can have all the "gun control" you want to, it's not going to take guns away from the criminals. It's not like the criminals are going to obey your gun control laws.

Washington D.C. has total gun control and yet, it has the highest crime rate (including violent crimes committed with guns) than any city in the U.S.

I believe the British government banned guns back in the mid 1990's (1996 or 97?). And yet, from what I've heard, the percentage of violent crimes (involving guns) has soared there in the past five years or so.

I realize the gun-control people have good intentions. But it just doesn't seem to work.

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It'll be interesting to see where this killer got his guns and how.

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Oralloy, the first thing is that you are making a judgment of people and calling them "freedom haters" just because they disagree with you on this. That is very narrow minded. Calling people names isn't defending freedom. It's defending your pride because you are insulted by the fact that people disagree with your opinion. Though I'm not upset by what you said, you still are working steadily towards breaking the TOS by being so rude in the course of defending yourself. You just need to relax a little and maybe try not to take the fact that people disagree with what you say so personally. That's all. It's really not a big deal.

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Some interesting aspects of this case and how it applies to recent gun laws.

This kid used a pair of handguns that he likely had to reload at least twice so it is not an issue about the assault weapons ban. From what I've heard, these weapons were bought legally so it's not an issue about background checks.

The only alternatives I think anyone can logically argue about this case are:

1) Concealed weapons should be allowed in more places.

2) All guns should be banned.

3) The school should have had more security (metal detectors, etc)

I don't think there are any other arguments to be had in this case. So let's take a look at all of them.

1) If students were allowed to carry concealed weapons they may have had the opportunity to take out this kid before he killed anyone. The other side is that allowing concealed weapons on campus in everyday life may lead to more school shootings. or fewer?

2) If guns were banned in the US then this kid may not have had the opportunity to get a hold of a gun, and thus not have shot up the school. The other side is that to effectivaly ban guns you first need to round up the 400 million that are currently in the US. Then you need to stop the illegal import of new guns. Both of those are very unlikely.

3) The school should have had better security and made everyone walk through a metal detector, then you couldn't have got a gun inside. This would be very expensive and therefore unlikely.

Of the 3 options, the only one likely to have had any impact is #1, allowing students to carry concealed weapons into class. Not all students, but ones who qualify.

Option 2 is impossible in the US without some MAJOR changes to our laws and like it or not the Constitution. There is a cost to this freedom. Remember that next time Bush wants to enforce warrentless wiretapping. Sure it could help fight crime, but we have rights for a reason. With all of the weapons in the US there is no way a BAN will work. I support the 2nd amendment, but I would love to live in a country where I could feel safe turning in my weapons to be destroyed. I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

I would like to hear what other gun laws you all think could have had an impact in this case.

And, the automobile thing keeps on coming up and I have an interesting comparison about that too.

Since speeding is against the law, and the faster a person goes the more likely they are to die in an accident, or kill someone, and since the fastest speed limit in the USA is 75 mph. Why shouldn't all cars that go faster than 75 mph be banned? Or shouldn't we put a govener on cars to not allow them to go faster than 75 mph? Should accidents that happen when someone is speeding have as harsh of penalties as accidents involving firearms?

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I'm using this thread as my main news site with CNN etc. second. I'd appreciate it if we don't go on with the gun control issue here with myriad pages of other repetitive posts when Dag's link could be used or a new thread started.

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Treya wrote:

Oralloy, the first thing is that you are making a judgment of people and calling them "freedom haters" just because they disagree with you on this. That is very narrow minded. Calling people names isn't defending freedom. It's defending your pride because you are insulted by the fact that people disagree with your opinion. Though I'm not upset by what you said, you still are working steadily towards breaking the TOS by being so rude in the course of defending yourself. You just need to relax a little and maybe try not to take the fact that people disagree with what you say so personally. That's all. It's really not a big deal.

I don't tend to call someone a freedom hater unless they've posted something rude or offensive first.

However, since my position is pro-freedom it seems clear cut that people who disagree are against freedom.

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Stray Cat wrote:

I can understand where the gun-control proponents are coming from. Take the guns away, and the problem is solved. Or at least, it will make it far more difficult for nut-jobs like the guy in VA to commit this sort of crime.

I disagree with the notion that it will make it more difficult. Take away guns and when people snap they'll make bombs instead.

Good point on how many of the people who talk about gun control are actually after a ban of some sort.

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The GUN CONTROL THREAD link again, since it got burried already by the new posts.

Of course it is related to the incident today. But at the point when the debate becomes purely about gun control, it would better serve its purpose on that other thread; and this thread would allow people to keep up with the news on this particular incident.

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Setanta wrote:

It is not the book which is the proximate cause of death, which is a point which it seems you are either to dense to absorb, or are intent upon ignoring. The book doesn't "cause" the violence, any more than the gun "causes" the violence--the pathology of the individual causes the violence.

I absolutely agree. However, my point was that any form of freedom is messy, can be abused, and can result in violence, or violent upheaval, but that that is not a valid basis for eliminating them. The ability to protect oneself, also, unfortunately, confers the ability to attack the innocent. One could, for instance, and someone somewhere probably has, attempted to ban the public expression of very, very unpopular ideas, on the grounds that the community should not be forced to pay for the police who would be required to maintain public order. In the end, though, this is not a valid reason for denying free speech. I will, however, not use this thread to continue this line of argument, since it was created to document a tragedy.

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realjohnboy wrote:

Good evening on a sad day in Blacksburg. I am hearing some rumors tonight, from students and others I know. The theory is that these may be two unconnected acts. In the last press conference I heard, rhe police chief had a "person of interest" that they are talking to regarding the 7:15 am incident.. He may have been involved with the police prior to the Norris Hall thing. I am reporting rumors, so don't quote me.

Catching up - Anyone else see the footage of todays incident showing a couple of officers putting someone down and (looked like) cuffing him? They had been reporting that the gunman was supposedly dead from self inflicted gunshot wound. So I was trying to figure out why they were treating this guy this way.

]Do we have an update on that?

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dagmaraka wrote:

The GUN CONTROL THREAD link again, since it got burried already by the new posts.

Of course it is related to the incident today. But at the point when the debate becomes purely about gun control, it would better serve its purpose on that other thread; and this thread would allow people to keep up with the news on this particular incident.

I'll try to hold off the gun control aspect unless I see something especially provocative.

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Also, a kid that had called in a report to MSNBC was talking about todays events and made several references to a similar incident last year on this same campus.

That would make me wonder why there was a two hour delay in warning the students or shutting down the campus.

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At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

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