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At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:52 pm
wandeljw wrote:
CerealKiller wrote:
Gun control is the perfect way to keep legal firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens. What makes you think someone willing to attempt murder cares about whether his gun is legal?


Legislation to reduce the availability of guns would help.
Careful Wandel you are talking dangerous sense.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:52 pm
Heh.... I felt like I was forgetting something walter!
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:52 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Cerealkiller, so far all mass killings were committed by so called
"law abiding citizens" without prior convictions, and most of them were
young, too young to waste their lives in this manner.

You're just looking for an excuse to carry a gun.



No I'm not.

I'm suggesting we do not need to add more gun control to punish 300,000,000 Americans because 1 nutjob decided to go act like a video game killer at Virginia Tech.

Taking rights from law abiding citizens will never fix criminal problems.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:56 pm
Don't be ridicilous, cerealkiller, there are 300 million people in the US
and not all of them are in favor to carry a weapon. In fact, I make the
assumption that only a small part of the population would insist on
carrying a weapon, and frankly these people scare the bazooka out of
me.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:56 pm
Let's define our terms, folks.

Gun control is not the same thing as banning. Am I right?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:57 pm
Does anyone know how many of these poor kids have serious wounds?

At least physical ones....



****.....usually these things seem to spur copy cats.


I do hope that doesn't happen.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:58 pm
I dunno. I wouldn't want to carry a gun and have fought Bear about having one in the house while our son lives here. He's just too "curious."

On the other hand, until after the 2008 election at the least, I want the option.
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:59 pm
wandeljw wrote:
CerealKiller wrote:
Gun control is the perfect way to keep legal firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens. What makes you think someone willing to attempt murder cares about whether his gun is legal?


Legislation to reduce the availability of guns would help.


42,636 - the number of people that died on our roads in 2005.

Are you also for reducing the availability of automobiles?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:02 pm
Letty wrote:
Let's define our terms, folks.

Gun control is not the same thing as banning. Am I right?


Of course you are.


It's only the gun nuts who seek to conflate the two.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:03 pm
Quote:
Recent accounts of young school students shooting each other has sent a shiver through the nation; journalists call the killings an "epidemic" and legislators have begun debates on new gun control laws. As tragic as these homicides are, however, they represent only the tip of an iceberg of gun deaths in the United States. Every year, more than 30,000 people are shot to death in murders, suicides, and accidents. Another 65,000 suffer from gun injuries.

"The total number of school shootings each year is typically far less than one day's toll attributable to firearms in the United States," notes David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Research and Control Center. "Defective Firestone tires may have killed 103 people over a number of years, but firearms kill about 85 people every day in this country."......


Link to Harvard Edu

And, that's from 2000.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:05 pm
cerealkiller, are you reading squinny's last post? Far more people
are killed through guns.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:06 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
I just saw Charlton Heston NRA president brandishing a gun and challenging anyone to take it out of his cold dead hand. (Is he dead yet?)

Well actually I give up. Play with lethal weapons all you like. Teach toddlers to shoot each other. Firarms for fetuses! Why not we all heard of shotgun weddings.


I hate to say it, but I think America is immersed in a culture of violence. I know it's hard for people in other countries to understand, because it's hard for me to understand after only three years of living away from it.

My behavior has totally changed since living here, where there isn't a gun culture. When I lived in the US, as a woman, I would never walk alone at night or go walking in the woods by myself even during the day with my dog- my whole subconscious affect knew that I needed to protect myself- because that's what I had been raised to know that I had to do to keep myself safe.

And when I came to England initially, I reacted the same way- just out of habit. I didn't know it could be any different. But it can. Women can walk alone without worrying they will be attacked and raped-children can go to school without worrying about getting shot. There are actually places you can live that women and children don't have to constantly be aware of who or what around them might hurt them.

I don't think most men are aware of how much a woman's freedom is curtailed on a day to day basis in the US. But women do have their freedom curtailed and always have- because of the threat of violence that pervades the streets in our country. And when it reaches into classrooms and dorm rooms, etc.- it's just too much

It makes me so sad that safety doesn't seem to be a viable option in my own country, and for my own friends and family. Why do people want to live in fear like this? It just seems so crazy to me that that's what we have chosen for our country.

I hate to say it- but I think the violence is due to more than the availability of guns (although I think banning them would be a start). This whole damn love affair with guns make me think violence has become an ingrained part of American culture- just like the rest of the world believes to be true. And who can disagree when this stuff keeps happening?
I know fear and protectiveness and defensiveness were ingrained in me as a woman in America. I didn't know how much a part of me it was, until I moved somewhere and realized I didn't need to be afraid anymore. But I know once I go back, it'll come right back. What a sad statement to make about one's own home country.
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:06 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Don't be ridicilous, cerealkiller, there are 300 million people in the US
and not all of them are in favor to carry a weapon. In fact, I make the
assumption that only a small part of the population would insist on
carrying a weapon, and frankly these people scare the bazooka out of
me.


There was a mall shooting in Utah a few months ago. Wanna know why it was so successful?

Because that mall has a sign posted which prohibits concealed guns. Who do you think pays attention to signs like that? Legally armed citizens? That mall was full of people who were known to be unarmed...and many of them died.

It finally took an off duty police officer in the food court to put the gunman down.

If that mall allowed concealed weapons, there would have been a better chance that someone closer than the off duty officer would have been able to deal with the threat before more lives were lost.

Same goes for the Va Tech tragedy today.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:06 pm
squinney wrote:
Quote:
Recent accounts of young school students shooting each other has sent a shiver through the nation; journalists call the killings an "epidemic" and legislators have begun debates on new gun control laws. As tragic as these homicides are, however, they represent only the tip of an iceberg of gun deaths in the United States. Every year, more than 30,000 people are shot to death in murders, suicides, and accidents. Another 65,000 suffer from gun injuries.

"The total number of school shootings each year is typically far less than one day's toll attributable to firearms in the United States," notes David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Research and Control Center. "Defective Firestone tires may have killed 103 people over a number of years, but firearms kill about 85 people every day in this country."......


Link to Harvard Edu

And, that's from 2000.


ouch
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:08 pm
Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall U.S. murder rate down, but youth gun killings up

January 2, 1999
Web posted at: 6:36 p.m. EST (2336 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The 1997 murder rate in the United States declined to its lowest level in 30 years, but young Americans were killing each other with firearms with greater frequency, the Justice Department reported Saturday.

There were 18,209 murders, or 6.8 for every 100,000 people, the lowest since 6.2 per 100,000 in 1967. The rate was down from highs of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980 and 9.8 in 1991. In 1950 the rate was 4.6 per 100,000.

"Our cities are now the safest they have been in a generation," the White House said in a written statement. "A variety of studies show that crime, and especially homicide, should continue to decline into the next year, and that is good news for Americans in 1999."

The Clinton administration attributed the declines to a 1994 crime law strongly supported by the president.

The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics released its analysis of FBI crime data for 1997 showing that while city dwellers remained more likely to be murder victims, much of the decline in the murder rate was posted in the nation's largest cities. In cities with populations above 1 million, the murder rate fell from 35.5 per 100,000 in 1991 to 20.3 per 100,000 in 1997. .....
CNN Link

That was the 1997 stats. I'm sure that since then it has gone back up. Clinton adjusted the laws AND put thousands more officers on the streets.

Bush did away with the extra officers.

Will have to see if there are more current stats.
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Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:15 pm
dlowan wrote:
Does anyone know how many of these poor kids have serious wounds?

At least physical ones....



****.....usually these things seem to spur copy cats.


I do hope that doesn't happen.


17 people were wounded. I assume that includes several student who jumped out windows. Surgeries are ongoing.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:16 pm
Re: the delay, the latest I've seen is that the initial killings were just two people, in the dorms. Police seemed to think that was an unfortunate but isolated incident. Then two hours later the stuff happened at the classrooms, with an additional 31 deaths (including the gunman's, by his own hand).
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:18 pm
33 dead and 30 injured...some by gunshots, some by jumping from second floor windows.
There was a press conference with Tech officials that ended a bit ago, in which the question was asked repeatedly about the lack of a shutdown/lockdown after the first shootings at 7:15 am.
(a) the police got a call at about 7:20 and (b) got to the scene in "about" five minutes. They (c) locked downed the dorm, and instigated an investigation. Apparently both of the victims died at the scene or at hospital.
The Tech spokesperson said that they had (d) information that the shooter had left campus, Blacksburg, or perhaps even the state. That seems to me to be an odd conclusion to make, So it got to be 8 am and (e) some 10,000 folks were driving into/walking around campus. A shutdown/lockdown wasn't deemed feasible I find that a bit illogical considering (d) above, but I can appreciate that it might have made sense.
Tech sent emails and did other kinds of notification to everyone after the Norris Hall shooting began at about 9:30 am.

I find that I can't source the "young Asian male" reference. I retract that and apologize if if it turns out to be wrong.
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Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:24 pm
JohnBoy, The police chief said in the press conference that the shooter was a young Asian male.

9,000 students live on campus. 11,000 live off campus and many of these were on their way to the school at the time all this was occurring. Would a lockdown have made a difference? Don't know.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 04:29 pm
Found the more recent (to 2005) stats.

Government Violent Crime Stats

There's more data which can be found at this DOJ Site. They break it down by weapons used.

Looks like murder was up by 800 in 2005 over 2001 statistics. Use of Firearms to commit murder up by 1100+.
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