At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

Another issue with me is that some talking head "expert" said "he used a .38 and a .22 semi-automatic pistol, and we all know those are both big and powerful weapons" DOH!

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My b-in-law is South Korean. Luckily he lives on the other coast.

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maporsche wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Ps. I don't know what everyone liked so much about Set's post, beyond being an interesting read. The conclusion seemed to be that gun control would work if we got serious about it for a couple of centuries. That's hardly a solution to any problem we're facing today.

I was thinking the same thing OBill. His solution is that we should disarm law abiding citizens TODAY so that in 200 YEARS guns will no longer be needed. How about we focus on disarming criminals first.

I have yet to see a handgun ownership advocate who had a rational, detailed plan for disarming the "criminals," or one who was willing to submit to strict handgun controls so that could be accomplished.

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dyslexia wrote:

Another issue with me is that some talking head "expert" said "he used a .38 and a .22 semi-automatic pistol, and we all know those are both big and powerful weapons" DOH!

That's OK, Dys. A poster a while back said that one of the weapons was a .22 mm. Now that would be one hell of a big and powerful weapon. Laughing

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oralloy wrote:

Merry Andrew wrote:
Interesting. It took only one page of responses to a horrible tragedy for this thread to degenerate into a pro-gun/anti-gun diatribe. Keep up the good, compassionate work, folks.

The anti-freedom types just can't help it.

And of course, any calls to repeal our freedom should be addressed as soon as possible, or else we may one day find that our cherished freedom is gone.

This wanker is typical of gun nuts. Any attempt at control is automatically placed in the anti-freedom, communist, fascist basket. It's a tactic to divert debate. Orralloy is the perfect example of why gun control is necessary. Noone so unstable should be allowed in the same country as a firearm.

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Setanta wrote:

maporsche wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Ps. I don't know what everyone liked so much about Set's post, beyond being an interesting read. The conclusion seemed to be that gun control would work if we got serious about it for a couple of centuries. That's hardly a solution to any problem we're facing today.

I was thinking the same thing OBill. His solution is that we should disarm law abiding citizens TODAY so that in 200 YEARS guns will no longer be needed. How about we focus on disarming criminals first.

I have yet to see a handgun ownership advocate who had a rational, detailed plan for disarming the "criminals," or one who was willing to submit to strict handgun controls so that could be accomplished.

I have yet to see a gun control advocate who had a rational, detailed plan for disarming the "criminals," either. Your plan of removing ALL guns is not rational and is not detailed, and worse than all it would not be effective.

That being said, I'm curious about what strict handgun controls you'd like to be enforced. I've had to register with the state here in IL. I have to have this FOID card on me at all times. I've had to pass a background check each and every time I've bought a gun (even at a gun show). What else do you have in mind?

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Wilso, this is not news.

I'm interested in the ongoing discussion.

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A totally bogus story, Dys. VT has many foreign students. Some of the victims were Asian. Absolutely absurd story.

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Wilso wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
Interesting. It took only one page of responses to a horrible tragedy for this thread to degenerate into a pro-gun/anti-gun diatribe. Keep up the good, compassionate work, folks.

The anti-freedom types just can't help it.

And of course, any calls to repeal our freedom should be addressed as soon as possible, or else we may one day find that our cherished freedom is gone.

This wanker is typical of gun nuts. Any attempt at control is automatically placed in the anti-freedom, communist, fascist basket. It's a tactic to divert debate. Orralloy is the perfect example of why gun control is necessary. Noone so unstable should be allowed in the same country as a firearm.

What I don't understand is the in-consistency displayed here between two 'freedoms' that have been in the news lately.

Pro-warrentless-wiretapping crowd:
"We need to listen to whatever phone calls we want so that we can catch criminals before they do anything to hurt other people."

Pro-gun-control crowd:
"We need to round up all the guns so that criminals won't be able to hurt other people."

Anti-warrentless-wiretapping crowd:
"Listening to my calls is an infringement of my freedom."

Anti-gun-control crowd:
"Taking away my guns in an infringement of my freedom."

I'm sure that everyone will ignore this, but I can't help but see the simularities between the two issues. Similar to the pro-choice, anti-gun comparison I made a while ago in another thread.

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maporsche wrote:

I have yet to see a gun control advocate who had a rational, detailed plan for disarming the "criminals," either. Your plan of removing ALL guns is not rational and is not detailed, and worse than all it would not be effective.

I didn't say ALL guns. I specified handguns. Handguns can only have two purpose--target shooting, and you don't need a .44 magnum for that, and killing people, which is the only thing a .44 magnum is good for. As long as people make reference to vague things like disarming "criminals," while claiming that armed "law-abiding citizens" can protect us from crazy shooters, you're not advocating anything practical, either.

Quote:

That being said, I'm curious about what strict handgun controls you'd like to be enforced. I've had to register with the state here in IL. I have to have this FOID card on me at all times. I've had to pass a background check each and every time I've bought a gun (even at a gun show). What else do you have in mind?

No handguns, period. If only the police and the military are allowed to have handguns, anyone found in possession of a handgun is automatically "a criminal," and no longer "a law abiding citizen." The standard response is that you need handguns to protect yourself from the "criminals," which means that handguns remain readily available, and big business. You and O'Bill can sneer at me to your heart's content for having no immediate solution, but i don't hear anything constructive being offered by either of you.

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realjohnboy wrote:

A totally bogus story, Dys. VT has many foreign students. Some of the victims were Asian. Absolutely absurd story.

Good to hear that, I was feeling depressed about it.

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Watching this debate with interest.

The arguments both for and against gun control presented here are exactly those that were presented when we (Aust) had this debate.

The argument that guns dont kill people, people kill people doesn't wash.

People with guns kill people.

The vast majority of these types of incidents are perpetrated not by crooks but by ordinary people that go over the edge. Additionally crims get guns that are stolen from ordinary peoples homes.

If you remove the guns from ordinary peoples homes both these problems are reduced.

No-one needs an automatic weapon for hunting, farm, or hobby (target shooting) use.

The bottom line is that gun control and enforcement does not make these problems go away completely it does however reduce the potential.

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farmerman wrote:

One thing , when his teacher put out a call for help from the authorities and the VT counselors, she was rebuffed. I think that police have got to rethink their missions from what they are now, which is merely the guys who show up and draw the chalk lines around the bodies

I truncated Farmerman's response. Go back and read the whole thing.

Farmerman, what are you suggesting? This guy wrote (apparently, the professor will not release any of that) stuff that she found "troubling." She notified "authorities." The claim seems to be made that no action was taken.

What action could have/should have been taken?

Should the police have gotten involved? Only, it seems to me if a threat was made in the writing. If not, I wouldn't want my writing or your writing subjected to approval or disapproval by the police.

Could VT, based on the writing have steered him towards counseling? Um, I guess so. But whether he went that way would have been up to him.

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(I'll look in the morning, though I often can't see videos. Anyway, not this evening.)

I feel for the parents, who I surmise may not have had any handle on all this. It must be beyond excruciating for them. Talk about islands in the world.

Yes, I know it is excruciating for the victims and their families, and the other students and the other faculty.

We have another a2ker in the relatively immediate area, who I'd rather identify himself when he wants to, if he sees this, and if so, we'd be interested in his thoughts in time.

That 'look in in the morning' was to CJane. Who knows, I may be on entirely the wrong thread.

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Hah, I guess I am on the wrong thread, but the my sentiments don't change.

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This kid was a twenty three year old college student. A twenty three year old college student can purchase any drug from Acid to XTC at will regardless of the $50,000,000,000 we spend each year and the Army of Law Enforcement Officers we employ to fail to prevent it. In a country that already has as many guns as people; it is foolhardy at best to believe a bunch of old men in Washington can figure out how to keep them out of the wrong hands. They can't. Sad, but true. This guy bought at least one of his guns legally. Does anyone really believe he couldn't have bought it if there was no legal means of doing so? Please. Its 11 pm here and if I thought I wanted a gun I could probably still buy one tonight.

Nothing can prevent a 23 year old college kid from snapping. Nothing.

Even if by some miracle you did do away with ALL guns; this kid was plenty smart enough to accomplish the same with a bomb. Sad, but true.

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spidergal wrote:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

Has anyone read this? Two plays written by the shooter. He was a frustrated writer.

Yes, I read them. Strong hatred expressed for male authority figures. Not uncommon for a young person.

Even if Cho had written the whole scenario for the day, is there anything that could have been done--aside from suggesting that he seek help?

Is there anything that could have prevented this?

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realjohnboy wrote:

farmerman wrote:
One thing , when his teacher put out a call for help from the authorities and the VT counselors, she was rebuffed. I think that police have got to rethink their missions from what they are now, which is merely the guys who show up and draw the chalk lines around the bodies

I truncated Farmerman's response. Go back and read the whole thing.

Farmerman, what are you suggesting? This guy wrote (apparently, the professor will not release any of that) stuff that she found "troubling." She notified "authorities." The claim seems to be made that no action was taken.

What action could have/should have been taken?

Should the police have gotten involved? Only, it seems to me if a threat was made in the writing. If not, I wouldn't want my writing or your writing subjected to approval or disapproval by the police.

Could VT, based on the writing have steered him towards counseling? Um, I guess so. But whether he went that way would have been up to him.

In addition to a professor being alarmed at this kid's writing we know also know (based on press reports) that he was given prescription drugs for depression last year - which should have been reported through the state and automatically disqualified him from purchasing any firearms - and that there were 2 bomb threat letters sent to the school within the last two weeks and a third similar bomb threat letter was found in this kids's dorm room.

This kid has been a ticking time bomb for years and the one and only person that tried to intervene was ignored. The school can do more than just point him to counseling. They could have reported him to the state which could have mandated a pysch eval on him.

This is the stuff that we send educators to seminars to learn to look for. If everyone is going to ignore educators when they do what they've been trained to do then what the h*ll are we training them for?

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dadpad wrote:

Watching this debate with interest.

The arguments both for and against gun control presented here are exactly those that were presented when we (Aust) had this debate.

The argument that guns dont kill people, people kill people doesn't wash.

People with guns kill people.

The vast majority of these types of incidents are perpetrated not by crooks but by ordinary people that go over the edge. Additionally crims get guns that are stolen from ordinary peoples homes.

If you remove the guns from ordinary peoples homes both these problems are reduced.

No-one needs an automatic weapon for hunting, farm, or hobby (target shooting) use.

The bottom line is that gun control and enforcement does not make these problems go away completely it does however reduce the potential.

Luckily, we didn't have a very well organised and scary gun lobby...though the nuts we did have were scary enough.... to hamstring sensible legislation.

The nuts in the US spread their poison all over, though.

Hehehe...we even had our nuts importing their drivel direct from the NRA....with the nonsense about our (nonexistent) second amendment, or whatever the hell it is, intact!

Too dumb to know they were not living under the same system as the US.

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Deb -->

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At least 20+ dead students in Virginia Tech; shooter dead

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