Mid-life crisis

I think you're getting to the anger part, Free. S'ok, you're entitled.

In my next mid-life crisis I may very well sell my Porsche, lettuce pray that never happens.

Two more cents; you're probably not In Love at the moment, how could you be? What remains to be seen is whether the two of you will fall in love with each other again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. If you don't, you've given it your best shot. If you do, it won't ever be the relationship it used to be.

Freedomelf--

Self-focused?

You bet.

If you saw the counselor alone, that would mean that you had something to say, some part in this drama that was independent of his starring role.



This man comes with considerable bath water.

You have choices. Do you want to continue in life playing the Supporting Role of "Sidekick" or do you fancy being a Leading Lady every so often?

Exactly. It's not "stay with him!" vs. "dump the lying ****". It's "get through this process in the most honest and proactive way possible, with the greatest probability of looking back in 10 years and feeling like you did the right thing."

When this first came up you (FreedomElf) were still in "he's my hero" mode. In time, you've come to a different place -- on your own. That process is what's important, I think. That's what will allow you to move on in the healthiest way -- no matter which direction you end up moving.

Yes.

yes.....I do think of this long-term, and try to figure out what will make us happy in the long run. Being older than him does add the the picture, because I have to feel confident that he will not be doing this again when I get older, with more wrinkles.

Last night, I told him how close I was to asking him to leave. I told him that we need to talk more.....he has been avoiding talking to me. But we did open up last night and talked for hours. It was hard at first, but he said it is getting a lot easier than he ever believed it could.

He said that he still misses her....sometimes as much as ever....but that his feelings towards her have "changed". He said that he no longer believes that he is "in love" with her, and thinks that he misses the deep friendship more than anything. He says that he does love me as a husband loves a wife, and he told me that the sex in LV was the best he has ever had......and that it's obvious that he and I are more compatible in that department than she and him. (Which shocked him, because he THOUGHT she was sexier than I was until then)

But.....I'm not sure I like the fact that he still misses her so much. He did say that he really, really wants our marriage to work and believes that it can. He also says that he really wants to get her out of his head. So...I guess I need to give it more time. He does say he hates himself for what he has done to me and everyone else. He is having a hard time living with the guilt.

We talked so much, and wound up sleeping in each other's arms. It felt right, in many ways. He was in a good mood when he left, but I hope that lasts after he sees that other former co-worker for lunch, that he has to go over his former job with. But if he comes home in a blue funk, then it's probably good that our counselor appointment was rescheduled for this evening. Something to talk about.

TTYL

Free, I thought of you when I read this article. It describes how men show their love side-by-side and women show their love face-to-face. Women want to talk, men want to do. You want to discuss your issues, he wants to take you on a surprise trip to Vegas. Chances are he will never be as comfortable as talking about how he feels as he is showing you how he feels.

source

Los Vegas is fun for both partners.

Backrubs tend to be enjoyed more by the recipient than by the masseuse.

There is a thread that is running throught this entire discussion that really bothers me. Other members have alluded to the obvious perception that your husband still thinks that it is all about HIM. He keeps throwing hurtful "zingers" at you, in the guise of "communication".

I dunno. I realize that you are relating the story from your perception of the scenario, but there is an undertone of cruelty on his part that seems to be cropping up over and over again. Your husband seems genuinely aware of HIS wants and needs, but practically oblivious to the effect that his words might have on you.

When I read the quote above, I got a picture in my mind of the woman who buys two expensive dresses, can only afford one, and can't make up her mind which one to take back to the store. One has a better color. One is a bit more flattering to her. She vacillates back and forth, and has difficulty in making a firm decision. Do you understand my line of thinking?

Then an old song by the Lovin' Spoonful popped into my head:

phoenix, that song hit home.....hubby is acting like a teenager in many ways.


He said last night in counselling that he believes that he is honestly "in love" with both of us. He said his feelings vacillate back and forth, and sometimes he feels like he is in love with me and not her, but most of the time he knows that he is in love with both of us. He does say that he is positive that he would be miserable if he were with her, because he would miss me so much he would want to die.....and that wouldn't make the other woman happy at all. So he thinks that it is better to stay with me and work on our marriage, and never see her again. He DID say that when he was living with her, he did feel like he was going to die without me.

When he said that, I told him that I doubt that he could be "in love" with her if he feels like he "will die" without me. He thought about it for a while, then said "I think you are wrong.....I think I CAN feel that way if I happen to be in love with both of you."

He made me feel like garbage, and I started crying in the session. He then said that he hates himself for not realizing he was still in love with me before falling for her. He hates what he has done, and he knows that if only he had made an effort to recognize his feelings for me, he would have KNOWN he was still in love with me, and he never, ever would have let her enter his heart.

But now that she has, it's too late, and he can't shut it off like a faucet. He said they spent a LOT more time together than he first told me, and he had gotten so used to being around her. He lied to me about when he met her. They went to lunch every single weekday for 6 months, and in addition worked alone together in his office for almost that whole time. So.....he had gotten close to her over many months, after lying to me and telling me it was only a month. He didn't sleep with her for nearly 6 months, though....but they developed a very, very deep friendship during that time. Since she fell in love with him at first sight, as she once told me, I'm sure she was very happy to become his special "friend" and wait to see if it would develop into something more.

I was devastated in the session and really felt like giving up.

However, the therapist then said that my husband is showing amazing courage and love for me in not contacting her at all since he came home. He said that in the vast majority of cases, men who have fallen for another woman go back and forth for YEARS trying to decide which one to pick, and they usually never do....it is usually one of the women who gets sick of it and bows out, leaving him with the other......and the other woman usually divorces the man within a few years after that, because they know they weren't "picked" and the marriage goes downhill.

So, he told me that I should recognize the fact that he has made a decision not to go back and forth, and has chosen to come back to me and work on our marriage. He is being strong and honest. The therapist thinks there is a good chance to save our marriage if we both work at it, and perhaps even have something better than we had to begin with.

I hope he's right.....but right now I am feeling scared that my husband will never make me feel "special" again.....and I don't know if I can live without that feeling. On second thought, I know I can't.

Have a good day, all.

I like that therapist.

He was doing a lot by saying this, I think.

Freedomelf--

Step forward. Step back. Step forward. Step back. Sorting out bathwater is a complicated process.



Uncovering another layer of deceit must have been terribly upsetting

He can't shut his love for Brenda off like a faucet?

He turned that faucet on slowly and deliberately for six months, flirting with flirting, flirting with infidelity before he actually hopped into bed.
He slowly, deliberately created Grand Passion with Brenda--and he still wants your sympathy. This wasn't a moment of misbegotten passion--this was a six month process of calculated....I could say "seduction"....I could say "playing with fire". He may insist that he was not planning on an affair, but he certainly shoving himself into repeated temptation.






I agree with Phoenix--and disagree with the therapist. Mr. F is back in your house--and sometimes in your bed (Has he been tested for STD's?) and he's giving you the thrill of being an audience for endless iterations of "What Brenda Means/Meant To Me".

Courage? Moving back in with you and bringing along his Brenda Memory Album for you to admire together is "courage"?

Love? Maybe appointing you Chief Worshipper is the best sort of love he's capable of.

I'm not objective here. I went through the same sort of betrayal with the First Mr. Noddy who went out of his way to create a Passionate Triangle and then wanted sympathy from me--without extending sympathy to me.

At least Mr. F hasn't explained that he needed the inspiration of an affair as background for the Great American Novel--which 35 years later he has yet to write.

Your therapist is absolutely right that when a man shilly-shallies for an extended period of time wanting two pieces of cake and absolution for being greedy, that one of the women sucumbs to boredom and kicks him out of her life.

Congratulations for expressing your hurt and dismay in front of the therapist. Marriage counseling is all about the marriage and not simply a showcase to exhibit one partner's feelings.

There are five people involved here: You; Mr. F; Brenda (who is still dominating conversation); and your two sons. Your needs are as important as those of the other adults.

One of the problems with marriage counselling is that its focus is on the marriage. To a marriage counsellor, the marriage is the client. That is, as opposed to individual counselling, where the person is the client.

I think that, if you are able, you need to discuss your situation with a professional whose focus would be on YOU, and not the marriage. I know that is a LOT of counselling, but in the long run, worthwhile.

actually.....when I mentioned the fact that my husband has a lot of strap scars on his back.....from when his dad hit him as a child...the therapist started talking to my husband about that. They decided that my husband needed separate sessions, and he will start going alone once or twice a month, in addition to our once a week sessions. That comes out to $5-600 a month, and there is just no way to get extra sessions with me alone. It's a stretch as it is.

The therapist believes that getting to the root of my husbands childhood problems will help our marriage. I hope that's true.

I'll be back tomorrow. I think this is as good as therapy for me.

Maybe your husband needs to face the past before he deals with the present and with the future.

Whatever the future, if he gets his past sorted out he'll make either a better husband or an ex-husband.

Hold your dominion.

um.... is your husband is going to the same therapist for his private therapy as the two of you are going to for marriage counseling? Not a good idea IMO.

Yes, excellent point.

Yes, he is......I didn't really think of that.

Last night I got kind of a shock (will they never stop???) when we were talking together. It was a good conversation, and he started saying how it was becoming easier to talk to me than ever before. He said he wants to be able to get to the point where he can say everything that he feels without fear that I will get upset or hate him.

So, naturally, I took the bait........"Are you telling me that you AREN'T saying everything now?"

He said that there are a lot of things he would like to tell me about his feelings, but that he has been "protecting me". And until he can REALLY open up to me, he will never feel like he can talk to me as well as he can talk to HER!!!!! (*&^%&?????)

So, anyway......I played it cool. After quietly reminding him that, um.....he "forgot" to tell Brenda that he thought we were more compatible in bed that she and him......and um....he backtracked when she got mad because he "slipped" and called me the "best friend he ever had" and then he felt guilty that he backtracked, because he knew in his heart it was still true.......and um.....he was able to tell me that she had a better body, but for some reason it "slipped his mind" to tell her that I had a prettier face.......oh and, he also forgot to mention to her that he thinks I am the smartest person he has ever met, including her......and in fact he has NEVER told Brenda ANYTHING that might hurt her, except for the fact that he had to come home to see if there was anything left to his marriage..........he'd overlooked all of that.


After that, I told him, "Listen, I want to know EVERYTHING that you need to say in order to get it off your chest once and for all. So this is what I will do.......I will give you ONE CHANCE to say everything you want to say, but after that, there will be NO MORE TALK OF BRENDA EVER!!!!! He said that he couldn't remember everything all at once, so I told him to go and start a letter to me, and keep adding to it through tonight, and to give it to me tomorrow. I told him to quit (cough) "protecting me" and say ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, with no holds barred. Make it a good long letter and get everything out, once and for all.

He agreed, and told me it was a "relief" that I am making him do it, so he won't feel so guilty about saying things that might be difficult for me to hear. He is happily composing a letter, and telling me how "wonderful" it will be to feel close enough to me to have told me everything.

So, tomorrow will be the end of hearing about Brenda, hopefully. But I have to admit, I can't imagine what he is protecting me from.....probably telling me that I'm getting middle-age spread or something, and that he wants the youth back. I wouldn't be surprised at this point. Yes, I am 5'6" and weigh 148 lbs, so I'm not "skinny minnie"....but I am CERTAINLY not a fat cow either!!! And I am down a few pounds from when this started. When we got married, I weighed 123 and had modelled in the past, so yes, I did look a lot better than I do now....but heck, I'm not going to worry about it. I honestly don't know what he is going to say, but I'm hoping that it will just be the same old garbage that he is too stupid to realize he has already told me ad nauseum.

Anyway.....I'll see. I probably won't be here over the weekend but I'll stop back in on Monday if anyone is interested in it. Thanks, all. I appreciate you so much.

Freedomelf--

J_B and Soz have a good point about overlapping personal counseling and marriage counseling. Mr. F. might need his marriage for personal growth and security--but you might not need Mr. F.

Congratulations on using your alpenstock of self-respect to draw a firm line in the sand. Setting a once-and-for-all deadline about "Brenda, My Love Discussions" will do wonders for your self esteem.



You and Mr. F. have agreed on this Last Letter of Soul Bearing. Good.
If Brenda comes up again, you might ask yourself whether Mr. F wants a wife or a marriage counselor or a mommie or a repository for his fragile ego.

He was grown-up enough to hop into bed with Brenda. Now he should be grown-up enough to consider your needs--and you have no need to dwell on Brenda's good points or bad points. If Mr. F. thinks that telling you all about Life With Brenda is loving and cherishing you, Mr. F. has some very silly ideas.

Remember, Brenda knew he was a married man. She is also a grown-up who made her own choices.

Hold your dominion.