Questions about Homosexuality

In the 1960s when I was a teenager, there was not any kind of information on homosexuality that was available to me and there was certainly NO public discussion about it, and the very idea of "equality"or "gay marriage" was a joke! I suppose I could have gone to the public library to try and figure out why I was feeling what I was feeling, but at that time it was not something that seemed feasible for a scared kid who was too afraid of being condemned to actually talk to an adult about it. In fact, for all I know, back then it might have been "off limits" for a 16 year old kid to even request such information at the library. I just knew it was "wrong" to talk about it and so I was forced to live in ignorance and it took a long time for me to come to grips with my orientation and to realize that I was actually "okay" and not a monster!

It was a terrifying hell growing up without understanding anything about why I felt the way I did. Hearing the occasional offhand remark like "He's SICK!" or "How SHAMEFUL!" when someone referred to a gay person didn't help much either, especially when there was no educated or enlightened viewpoint available to me.

When I was 11, the common word was "queer" and we would say "He's so queer" even though at the time I had no idea what it meant....I just knew it was an insult and a bad word.

I can't imagine my mother sitting me down and explaining all that to me when I was 11. In fact, in those days, even saying the word "queer" in front of her was enough to get a smack across the face for saying a "dirty" word.

You can't even imagine how scared and devastated I felt when I finally learned what "queer" actually meant....and I realized that I WAS that "dirty word". I was just 12 years old. I cried myself to sleep that night and then lived in abject fear of discovery until I was in my 20s.

Intellectual understanding aside, I don't see how straight folks can truly understand what it is like to live life as a gay person in a generally and traditionally homophobic society. Some straight people with gay friends and/or gay family members might have a much clearer understanding than those who do not.....but I still don't think they can completely comprehend what it's like to live 24/7 being condemned for no actual "reason". It's impossible to fully grasp the depth of feeling of what it's like to be someone who is hated, feared and persecuted by the majority of voters in their own country....especially when that hate and condemnation is based on ignorance handed down from generation to generation.

In other words, I think straight people can be enlightened to the struggle for us gay folks, but I don't think they can totally comprehend the daily struggle of what it is to be gay.

Some people, with no personal experience in the reality of being a gay person, believe that gay people choose their orientation but that straight people are just naturally straight. Just because a person believes an idea which supports their preconceived notions of orientation, that does not make it so. That is not a "truth" in "their reality". That is just "their belief".

I have been told by people that my orientation is the result of a personal choice. Because I am the one that has lived MY life for the last 55 years, I KNOW that is not the reality of the situation. THEY ARE INCORRECT AND/OR MISLED.

A strong belief in something does not make it "the truth".

Also, being gay is not a "lifestyle" anymore than being black or being left handed is a "lifestyle". That misnomer implies that sexual orientation is simply a "style" of living, and, as we all know, our lifestyles change all the time. Living as a student in a college dorm is a "lifestyle" as is being a priest, a suburban soccer mom, a prostitute or a wanderer doing odd jobs to get by. A successful businessman whose business empire collapses and forces him to live on the streets is a change of "lifestyle". ALL of those lifestyles can be lived by either gay or straight people.

Homosexual *behavior* is different from *homosexuality*. Homosexuality is intrinsic; and not a choice. Homosexual *behavior* can be accomplished by anyone who wants to try it, and is therefore a choice. Witness our prison populations....

Because some folks engage in homosexual behavior, does not alter the fact that *homosexuality* is not chosen, and is biologically determined.

A straight person can have (practice) homosexual sex (AKA "experimentation") or be forced to (such as the case in prison rape).....but that person is STILL STRAIGHT.

A gay man can have sex with a woman and even marry that woman and have children.....but that person is STILL GAY. The same would be true of lesbians who marry men.

A bisexual person can have sex with either sex AND fall in romantic love with either sex.

The bottom line is that sexual activity does not mean that their SEXUAL ORIENTATION has changed at all.

Sexual orientation is a STATE OF BEING, NOT "a behavior".

Sexual acts are BEHAVIORS, NOT "a state of being".

The differences between heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual persons are WHO THEY FALL IN ROMANTIC LOVE WITH....NOT whether or not they have ever practiced sexual activity with a gender outside their sexual orientation.

You can change your behaviors but you can't change your orientation. Even those who claim that they have switched from gay to straight usually admit that they still battle their temptations but have been able to not act on them.

I have known many gay people that have embraced their sexual orientation very early in life and many that came out of the closet very late in life. Not even ONE of them has ever claimed it was a "decision to turn gay". They ALL say the same thing....that the only "decision" they made was the decision to start being honest with both themselves and the world.

That's what confuses so many people. They see someone they've known for a long time and who has always appeared to be straight with a wife and children, etc...and then one day that person "comes out". Since friends and family can't believe that they had just never truly known their friend or family member at all, they seem to tend to interpret it as a "change" of sexual orientation rather than simply a very late acceptance of sexual orientation.

It's like comparing right-handedness to political affiliation. You don't choose to be right-handed, but you do choose your ideals and attitudes for the *most* part.

Note that I say for the most part because free choice is a rather ambiguous concept to me; and I don't think anyone should draw hard and fast lines about what is choice and what is not in every case.

For example, we can say political affiliation is a free choice, and mostly I think it is and it is malleable. But it is also a factor of upbringing, experience, education, and personal taste; and therefore can be changed after having different experiences, etc. I think distastefulness or acceptance of other people's homosexuality is much the same. At the same time, I think a certain abhorrence toward having sex *yourself* with the same sex (if you are biologically heterosexual), or toward having sex with the opposite sex (if you are biologically homosexual) has a strong biological component. That abhorrence to what you might do yourself can transfer to an abhorrence that other people might behave that way. It's what I call the "ew... I could never do that, so how could anybody" syndrome.

In general, I think malleability is an important criteria when you are trying to decide if something is biologically determined or not. The fact that no matter what is done, most homosexuals cannot become straight and most heterosexuals cannot become gay is critical to understanding sexual & romantic preference.

A gay person may choose to stop having sex or forming romantic relationships with members of their same sex, but that doesn't actually change their orientation. Of course, someone that defines himself as bisexual but chooses to remain committed to just one person (either male or female) is not "changing" his orientation either.

Some folks can't understand the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. They may change their behavior but inside they are still gay. Those who claim they "changed" usually admit that they continue to fight their homosexual feelings and work very had to avoid those temptations.

Do straight people "fight their homosexual attractions" and do they have to guard against "giving in" to their homosexual fantasies of gay sex and gay relationships? My guess is "no". If those feelings are real, then as I see it, that's what actually defines the person's orientation, not his "behavior". A particular "behavior" or sex act doesn't define one's sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is in the mind and heart, not in the genitals.

There are gay people people that have never had sex with a member of their same sex. One can be a total sexual virgin and still be gay or straight. Just pointing out that being gay is NOT a "behavior", it's "a state of mind".

Part of the argument about choosing preference is that the anecdotal stories matter, ie, we need to listen to the experiences of gay people and verify it against our own, that we never made a conscious choice to be one way or another, and that *orientation* is not under conscious control.

But then we turn right around at these kinds of stories and say "we don't believe THEIR stories". It seems highly hypocritical to me. If I am to listen to and believe the stories of one group, I think I have to offer that same courtesy and respect to others.

That line ends when *either* group says because my experience is this, your experience MUST be also.

jespah,

Thank you so much for your post. It's helping me a great deal to understand things. I'm getting to see things through the eyes of others on this and it is helping me. But, it is still confusing me somewhat also.

It's hard to deal with these "religious" views in this context but I know that I need to. I have to be willing to have enough faith to look for the truth about this.

Wondering things about how hard it may be for someone in this situation to even have to think about what someone else might think has to be at the very least, disheartening.

I don't know where I will end up on this issue yet. I'm not even going to venture a guess. There are a lot of years behind me with a certain way of thinking and I wasn't even willing to get "intimate" with this issue so it may take some time and a lot of introspection and plenty of explaining from everyone. I appreciate your help.

I am thinking that my concept of homosexuality being a choice may be what needs the redefining. It appears from what others have shared here and what I have been reading that it's not that people choose to have the homosexual feelings, it's they choose whether or not to (I don't know the right word here. I don't want to offend anyone by using the wrong word) "carry out" those feelings? So, it's possible that yes, people are born that way but they make a choice later on about it?

Phoenix,

Thank you for your post. I do have a couple of questions for you. How old were you when this happened? I was 35 when I was in graduate school. Did you have much experience being around homosexuals before this? Over the years I had known a few. My favorite nephew, who died of AIDS, was gay. I have to tell everyone, I feel kind of funny typing "homosexuals, etc." because it feels like I'm pointing out something here. I hope everyone understands that it's just in reference to the issue at hand? I'm sure you all do. I think it's my conflicting feelings right now that are the basis for my caution.

Did you get a chance to talk to these gentlemen, Phoenix? You said that outwardly (not exact quote) that you wouldn't have known by their demeanor, etc. So, I am thinking that is what ehBeth referred to as style?

Exactly. These three guys looked like any straight males that you would see on the street. I spoke with each of them them after their talk. If I had met them socially, unless the subject were brought up, I would have had no inkling that they were gay.

I completely agree with Beth, and her discussion of "style".

I'm just funnin' with ya. Didn't mean to make a fuss. I have no problem with gays, just don't like the agenda being forced on our society, particularly by Hollywood.

As far as men looking at men goes, I could look at George Clooney or any other "good looking" man all day long and, I'm quite positive, have absolutely none of those types of thoughts. Nada. Yuck.