Questions about Homosexuality

There was this woman that I worked with a few years ago. She had been married for nearly 20 years and had two children. Her husband was drop dead gorgeous. About five years ago he fell in love with a younger man and left his wife and children.

Linda said that she never had a clue. He had never said or done a thing to give her any indication that this was coming. It nearly destroyed her. Her husband wouldn't talk much about it and she struggled with this for a long time.

I don't know if he had these feelings all along or if it just happened as it did to Sue with Betty. The only thing I do know is it never changed the way I viewed him. I ended up working for him a couple years after he left his wife and he was the same guy he always was.

I just know the situation was extremely rough on his family. I can certainly appreciate how hard it might be to tell someone else about this, but I don't understand why he wouldn't at least try to explain to her what was going on with him.

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Great story, Lash. Your daughter's boldness in that situation really made me smile. And you know, you probably are right. That guy may go his whole life without 'coming out'; maybe not even to himself. I don't know if I would have the guts to, in his situation. It would be hard.

Thanks a lot Lash, for your kind words. Really. Means a lot. There is always a part of me that wonders "should I keep that part of me to myself, to avoid the complications, or is this situation worthy of speaking up?". I feel confident adding my voice here is a good thing now. Plus, I like some of the people here so much, have shared so much with them, that it don't matter no' more if certain others have a prob with this info.

Sexual orientation is really one of those things that I think, to put it bluntly, is no one's f*ing business, unless the person offers up the info themselves for their own reasons, or unless it's a question of liking someone and wanting to be a relationship with em. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be 'out there', and sometimes it just creates a bloody mess.

MoAngel,

Momma Angel wrote:

So, if it's okay to ask, can I ask if you remember the very first time you felt attracted to the same sex? How did you feel about it? Were you scared? Can you describe it? flushd, I'm sorry, I have to say I'm sorry, but it seems so personal of me to ask but I really feel a need to know these things.

Ma, honestly, the first time I started to know I was attracted to girls was when I was around 9-12 or so, and I had feelings for my best friend. We were so young, did everything together, both tomboy-types, out adventuring and telling everything to each other. It seemed perfectly natural at the time: we were best friends, we slept in the same bed, we snuggled, we had fun, we even talked about boys.
Her mom started to look at us weird. She told us we couldn't spend nights together anymore. She told my friend she was a freak. She told my parents on me, and I felt great shame and wondered "why are we bad? we didn't do anything bad?"

My father was a very liberal man, and he seemed to catch on fast. He talked to me about things. I had my dad in my life until I was a young teen. I think he saved me a lot of pain, because he helped me through that important time to know I wasn't bad, and that I didn't have to live by what others told me I should, that I could like anyone I want!
He wanted to know if I had a crush on any boys?
I said, sometimes, but I like S-- more.

As I became a young teen, and then a teenager, I liked boys, and girls, but since I had moved to a new school in a more conservative environment (a small town! only white farmers! ); I started getting made fun of.
Suddenly : girls have boobs and hips and stuff, and I am told it is 'disguisting' to like that.
There was a tolerance before puberty, not great but it could be said we were just children doing child thing.
Once a teen, to like the same sex is to be definetly different, and the pressure is strong not to show it. Even a lot of my friends would have rejected me, not out of hate, but insecurity and pressure on themselves.
I had male and female friends, and all my female friends started with the guy-dating thing. I really didn't care much at all. Guys were great, but I wasn't interested beyond friendly-kissing and having fun.
There was someone I was in love with, a girl, and it couldn't happen. It was my secret.
So I just did the whole dating guys even though all the dating was just like hanging out with clumbsy friends - not sexy - just to keep the entire town off my back.
If I could have left that town - I would have - but it was not an option for me. My brother was a medical wreck - I couldn't leave him - and my mother couldn't do it herself.

It is very difficult to explain myself and my feelings, because I never did just like girls or boys. I have felt the full range with both male and female. There are no clear-cut lines: it is completely dependent on the individual person and their qualities.

I'm a grown up now and live independently so I don't give a sh*t what others think I should have in my life. But the challenges still remain. There is still a lot of discrimination.

Oh Oh. When I was around 21 I found a writer,
her name is Violet Leduc's
" Le Batard " was the book.
It mirrored a world for me, at a time when I was exploring,
and I highly recommend it.
At least, I love it.

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flushd--

It is so surprising to think someone with as many valid contributions as you have shared, would be hesitant to open up. I hope you will do so on a regular basis. You have been a great addition, IMO.

BTW-- my daughter knew the boy in a far different setting. She has some gay friends, one of whom "church boy" has "dated" on the sly. She didn't divulge that in front of my mother, except to say she was sure of his orientation. Later, she told me she'd been in a social situation, where he was nuzzling one of her gay friends.

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Ma,
Eeks, your friend's situation sucks no matter how you look at it. I think in that situation; it is not so much a matter sexual orientation as the fact that he:
1)left his family! fell in love with someone else
2)had not shared something, that to his wife, would be seen as a big part of his identity. It could really leave someone wondering "do I even know him?did I EVER know him?" type of thing. Just a lot of questions for your friend.

Anyways, yeah. lol.

Lash,
That is so cool that you and your daughter chat like that, and that it is becoming more acceptable for young people to be whatever they are amongst themselves. When I think about how much trouble i would have had sneaking around when I was younger, couldn't really think of one lesbian/bisexual woman I knew then! to talk to....I do think there are strides being made.

I mean, I saw Degrassi the Next Generation with a cousin of mine, and one of the main characters is a gay guy, they showed him speaking to his friends about his relationships, they showed a kiss etc etc. I didn't watch Degrassi the Original or anything, though , but I was pretty happy when I saw that on t.v.!

Razz

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Momma Angel wrote:

J_B Wrote:

Quote:
If the tendancy to homosexuality is genetically passed on then it will be part of the DNA that comes from the father/mother. Half of the DNA comes from each parent. Each of us carries chromosomes from each of our parents and pass on one of those for each trait. For instance you might have recieved a chromosome for blue eyes from one parent and brown eyes from another parent. You don't have blue/brown eyes. You demonstrate one eye color (brown in this case because it is dominate) but you are capable of passing on the blue eye color gene to your children. If a homosexual passes on a genetic tendency then it will be passed on approximately 50% of the time (unless he has recieved it from both of his parents and then he will pass it one 100% of the time).

Questions: They can pick out what DNA causes your eyes to be a certain color, right? Are they close to finding a gene, DNA, etc., determining homosexuality? So, in your first paragraph it means IF homosexuality is genetic it will be passed on approximately 50% of the time?

There are a lot more studies than ever before, including federally funded studies which have been rare.

From the Boston Globe article:

Quote:

Researchers at Northwestern University, outside Chicago, are doing this work as a follow-up to their studies of arousal using genital measurement tools. They found that while straight men were aroused by film clips of two women having sex, and gay men were aroused by clips of two men having sex, most of the men who identified themselves as bisexual showed gay arousal patterns. More surprising was just how different the story with women turned out to be. Most women, whether they identified as straight, lesbian, or bisexual, were significantly aroused by straight, gay, and lesbian sex. "I'm not suggesting that most women are bisexual," says Michael Bailey, the psychology professor whose lab conducted the studies. "I'm suggesting that whatever a woman's sexual arousal pattern is, it has little to do with her sexual orientation." That's fundamentally different from men. "In men, arousal is orientation. It's as simple as that. That's how gay men learn they are gay."

These studies mark a return to basics for the 47-year-old Bailey. He says researchers need a far deeper understanding of what sexual orientation is before they can determine where it comes from.

Female sexual orientation is particularly foggy, he says, because there's been so little research done. As for male sexual orientation, he argues that there's now enough evidence to suggest it is "entirely in-born," though not nearly enough to establish how that happens.

How long it will take to isolate and map the gene, if that's what it is, is anyone's guess. It will never happen without research and the research is still preliminary. The numbers definitely indicate that it is somehow genetic. If it weren't then you would see a different outcome in the twins study. Also, from the Globe article:

Quote:

But there will be plenty of time for sorting out the evolutionary paradox once - and if - researchers are able to identify actual genes involved in sexual orientation. Getting to that point will likely require integrating multiple lines of promising research. That is exactly what's happening in Eric Vilain's lab at the University of California, Los Angeles. Vilain, an associate professor of human genetics, and his colleague, Sven Bocklandt, are using gay sheep, transgenic mice, identical twin humans, and novel approaches to human genetics to try to unlock the mystery of sexual orientation.

Instead of looking for a gay gene, they stress that they are looking for several genes that cause either attraction to men or attraction to women. Those same genes would work one way in heterosexual women and another way in homosexual men.

It isn't a matter of if it's genetic, it's a matter of how. I thought this was very telling,

Quote:

This accumulating biological evidence, combined with the prospect of more on the horizon, is having an effect. Last month, the Rev. Rob Schenck, a prominent Washington, D.C., evangelical leader, told a large gathering of young evangelicals that he believes homosexuality is not a choice but rather a predisposition, something "deeply rooted" in people. Schenck told me that his conversion came about after he'd spoken extensively with genetic researchers and psychologists. He argues that evangelicals should continue to oppose homosexual behavior, but that "many evangelicals are living in a sort of state of denial about the advance of this conversation." His message: "If it's inevitable that this scientific evidence is coming, we have to be prepared with a loving response. If we don't have one, we won't have any credibility."

When the fundies and evangelicals start looking for spin then the fat lady has begun to sing.

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Great stuff flushd, thanks.

Yeah, part of what I love about the greater willingness to show homosexuality in that kind of situation -- Degrassi et al -- is that it makes default mode a little less default. Kids are shown that there are other options, and if they prefer another option, that's OK.

Squinney mentioned people experimenting more these days too, I think that's all part of the same thing.

It all goes towards helping the situation Momma Angel describes at the top of the page NOT happen. If that guy had been able to experiment, hadn't been so thick in denial, would he have gotten married?

I linked to this before (I think? I couldn't find it just now), but it is a really interesting article, and addresses that situation directly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/07/health/07broke.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Quote:

On the whole these are not marriages of convenience or cynical efforts to create cover. Gay and bisexual men continue to marry for complex reasons, many impelled not only by discrimination, but also by wishful thinking, the layered ambiguities of sexual love and authentic affection.

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Yeah, I thought that thing about Schenck was really interesting, J_B. And heartening.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Questions: They can pick out what DNA causes your eyes to be a certain color, right?

I don't know, but it's possible.

Momma Angel wrote:

Are they close to finding a gene, DNA, etc., determining homosexuality? So, in your first paragraph it means IF homosexuality is genetic it will be passed on approximately 50% of the time?

I would be very surprised if they were. On the DNA level, each gene stands for some protein or enzyme the body needs to build itself. Some of those genes have a one-on-one relationship to a condition of a body -- a pigment, or a vulnerability to an illness, you name it. But most genes in the DNA control more than features of a body, and most features are controlled by more than one gene. Hence it's extremely unlikely that our DNA contains "a" gene for homosexuality.

Momma Angel wrote:

Yes, it's a lot of numbers, but you explaining it like that sure helps. I have to admit I was ignorant of those facts and would have to say that I did figure environment had something to do with someone being homosexual. It appears I was in error.

Whenever you have explored the genetic branch of the issue, do feel free to consider the societal branch: Even if being gay was a choice, why should anyone constrain their liberty of making it?

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Thanks for pointing out this statement of Momma angel's, Thomas, I actualy hadn't seen it:

Momma Angel wrote:

I have to admit I was ignorant of those facts and would have to say that I did figure environment had something to do with someone being homosexual. It appears I was in error.

I think we're making real progress! Yay!

One thing to clarify is that environment can have something to do with homosexual behavior -- in the nature/ nurture equation, I think it's some of each. I think there are a lot of different aspects interacting, at all levels. So, for example, some combination of biological factors and conditions in the womb lead to the birth of a person who is, say, a "3" on the Kinsey scale. In a very conservative, anti-gay environment, that person may grow up and live a heterosexual life. In a more liberal, accepting environment, that person may go ahead and experiment and eventually settle down with someone from one gender or the other. (Flushd conveyed the experience of a "3" really beautifully.)

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I once worked for a family shelter, and after making my daily rounds, i returned to an office in the main building of the branch of national organization for which i worked, to which was attached another building, and that building included a men's shelter for alcoholics, rather like the kind of shelters the Salvation Army runs.

One of the staff members of the men's shelter was so obviously gay that everyone took it for granted that he was, with no questions asked (and, although quite a few of the men in the shelter were obviously disgusted, no comment--and he ignored them, he had a job to do and did it well). One might imagine my surprise then, when one evening as we made our rounds together (we were both responsible for building security in the evening after the administrative staff had gone home), his wife showed up with their three children, and she also obviously had a bun in the oven. The children were aged about seven to two. The woman was very frilly feminine, and apparently doted on him--her eyes never left him while she was in the lobby, and when she spoke to him, i would describe her look as adoring.

Finally, a few months later, my curiosity got the best of me, and i asked him if he weren't, in fact, gay. He gave me a sidelong glance, and we walked along, checking doors for a while, before he replied by asking me a question, to the effect of whether or not i were interested. I told him no, just curious. We finished checking all of the doors in the administrative offices, and then secured the kitchen, and the doors leading from the main building to the warehouse. Then he stopped and told me that he loved his wife and children, and that mere sexual stimulation is a pretty poor reason to give up something so valuable. We never discussed the subject again, and it wasn't really important, either. We were friends in the sense that people are when they work together and get along reasonably well.

It has made me think, though, a good deal about what makes a man male, and what makes a woman female--whether or not these aspects of gender are cultural, i could not say, but i did notice certain traits which have to do with gender, but not sexual orientation. I later got to know the homosexual community of Columbus, Ohio (a large and militantly active community) rather well. Young men, homosexual or heterosexual, make a good deal of sexual conquest and sexual promiscuity. Having lots of sexual partners is taken as evidence of one's attractiveness and worth. Young males, heterosexual or homosexual, are less likely to form lasting, exclusive relationships than women of the same age. As men age--even though the culture urges many men (heterosexual) to continue to prove their virility with sexual conquest--they often tend to put more focus on the quality of a relationship (if they mature, and i emphasize the caveat that women are as likely to remain immature and selfish as are men). The more stable homosexual relationships were usually those of middle aged men. Their situation, however, is complicated by the scythe of the grim reaper. HIV/AIDS kills a lot of gay men before they even reach middle age, and many middle-aged gay men are very lonely men--so many of the friends of their youth are dead and buried. This leads to a phenomenon in which middle-aged gay men will suddenly become promiscuous, it seems a form of suicide attempt with men who are lonely and depressed, and no longer care.

With homosexual women, it is more difficult for me to make a comment. I've known quite a few lesbians, and been friends with them. However, men constantly face a challenge in getting to know heterosexual women, the "prove you're not a creep" bar which has to be vaulted before you can be a woman's friend. With homosexual women, who have little interest in your company in the first place, that sort of thing is not as important, and lesbians who flirt with you are just playing an ego game. They really haven't much interest, though, in forming a real friendship with a man. It has been mostly middle-aged lesbians whom i have gotten to know well. Them, and the mechanics at Alternative Auto Care on Second Avenue . . .

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Are they good?

I know a lot of gay men my age, and one thing that has come up in conversations is that they tend to be more family-oriented than their elders. It goes something like -- older gay men came of age in a time when homosexuality was bad bad bad, and they did the bathhouse scene and never held hands in public and generally weren't ABLE to have relationships. Also, back to the default mode thing, they often tried hard to be in heterosexual relationships and it was not until they were older -- mid-20's, say -- that they finally realized that their gayness wasn't going anywhere and they came out -- with a vengeance. 25-year-olds and 35-year-olds acting like 15-year-olds, since they hadn't been able to do it when they were really 15.

Meanwhile, people my age (35) and younger are more likely to have had a parallel development to heteros -- early crushes, early fumbling, more complex and advanced relationships in college, then settling down with a long-term partner, and, often, having kids. But all of that in a same-sex framework.

This depends on a lot of things, and "more likely" doesn't mean "always" by a long shot, but several friends of mine have said they've gotten razzed by the older generation for being so damn boring and homebody-ish.

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If you mean "are they good" in reference to the mechanics--not as good as men who have been doin' it since they were 12, but they are less likely to willfully rip you off. They'll check your ass out, just like any good mechanic would do.

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I meant the mechanics, yep.

Noted, thanks.

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I have read all of the posts posted since I went to bed last night. So much information and it helps and it confuses me also.

I am thinking that my concept of homosexuality being a choice may be what needs the redefining. It appears from what others have shared here and what I have been reading that it's not that people choose to have the homosexual feelings, it's they choose whether or not to (I don't know the right word here. I don't want to offend anyone by using the wrong word) "carry out" those feelings? So, it's possible that yes, people are born that way but they make a choice later on about it?

There have been some things happening lately that have caused me to look at a lot of things and question some. And, please don't take this statement wrong anyone, but would you believe that it was in listening to Christians in a Christian Chat Room that got me started to rethinking things?! I had this thought that listening to a Christian Chat Room was going to be anything but what it is. I'm not so sure anymore that anyone at all has the right concept of who and what God is. I think some are probably closer than others but I just don't know anymore.

Questions like if God loves everyone won't he forgive homosexuals for their choice especially if it is something one can be born with? I don't know so many things right now. What I do know is that I will not stop being a Christian. I am hoping to be a better one. I had to realize that I need to not just know about things like homosexuality but I need to UNDERSTAND those things to have a basis from which to make the right decisions.

Setanta's post brought up a question and if anyone would or could answer it, I would appreciate it. It seems that some homosexuals are yes, what some call "flaming" and others are not. Is this part of homosexuality a choice? Am I mixing up orientation with homosexuality? Please correct me if I mix up things like that because I'm trying to straighten it out.

Phoenix, I really want to talk to you about your experience that you posted. I will get that finished and post it soon.

Flushd, your posts are so helpful. You having feelings on both sides of this issue and being willing to share them is helping me understand a lot.

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Lots to catch up on.

I'll just throw something in on this.

Momma Angel wrote:

..flaming... <snip> Is this part of homosexuality a choice? Am I mixing up orientation with homosexuality? Please correct me if I mix up things like that because I'm trying to straighten it out.

My experience would suggest that what you're mixing up here is style and homosexuality.

Some people (gay/straight/bi) are more flamboyant than others - some, just cuz it's their personality/style - others, to make a statement - and still others, <shrug question marks>

hamburger had an aunt who could be described as having a 'flaming' personality - her personality was simply bigger and bolder than anyone else around.

I've known a couple of 'flaming' gay men, but most of the gay men in my life are as grey/beige in personality as much of the rest of the world. <and there are, proportionately, as many unattractive gay men as there are unattractive straight men - no matter what the Prince says>

~~~~~~~~

Loved JB's stats analysis post. It laid out a lot of the info in a sensible way.

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ehBeth,

Yes, I was afraid I was mixing things up somewhat. Thanx for clarifying that for me.

It's not easy for me to admit how little I actually do know about this subject. I guess I figured I knew what I needed to know and that was it. However, that has changed. I wish I could say why this weighs so heavily on my mind, ehBeth, but I can't pinpoint it exactly. I can tell you pertinent points about why, but I don't feel I've gotten to the "root" of what is weighing on me so heavily here.

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There are three gay people in my 12-person department (2 women, 1 man). None of them are flamboyant in any sense of the word. The man and one of the women are in serious relationships (er, not together, of course). The other woman is not. I know the name of the man's boyfriend, and a little bit about him. I recently learned that the woman with the relationship actually had a relationship.

Anyway, bottom line, these folks are all my colleagues and I like them. And it's amazing, you know, that anyone can talk to me and in five seconds you know I'm married and all that, but for these three people, it took them quite a while to come out to me. The man came out first, he just said something about S___ and it was not rocket science to figure out that S___ is a special person to my friend. For the women, it was even more offhanded. For the one not in a relationship, she mentioned something about being in a wedding party several years ago, and that she had to "stand around and act like a straight woman", to which I replied, "So, um, how do we act?" And the other woman, it was even more offhanded, it was just, she and I were talking about crock pots and I mentioned there's only two of us at home, do you think it makes sense to buy one and she said, "Well, tell me how it goes, 'cause there's two of us at home, too, and maybe we'll get one if you like yours."

I think the gist of it (I'm rambling, I know) is that I'm glad my friends felt comfortable enough to tell me as much as they have. And it must be hard for them. Every time they meet a new coworker or make a new friend, do they tell? If so, how? And under what circumstances? I've said nothing to other people, as it can be tough to tell who knows what. The department knows, at least I think everyone in the department knows, but it's not my place to let the cat out of the bag. But I can tell you that, I know, if any of them were to marry (hey, we can do that here), I'd be proud and happy to attend their wedding, and pick out something from Macy's and all of the other things that are the trappings of that. And if they never do, they never do. I have plenty of heterosexual friends who may or may not ever marry. My friends' relationships with other people are not what makes me friends with them. And this is true regardless of the intensity or type of relationships that may be.

I firmly believe that the key to tolerance is getting to know people intimately. I don't mean sexually, I mean, you make friends with someone, you have conversations, you go to lunch or whatever and you have more than a passing acquaintance with them. And you see that they have the same concerns and quirks that you do, that they fret over taxes and get an aching back from shoveling their driveway and wonder if their parents are okay back home and sing along badly to the radio. I guess that's where I find it so tough to see even the relevance in the sense of "forgiveness". Forgiveness implies that something was done wrong. And yes, I know what's supposedly wrong. But why does it have to be that way? Why does that inherent conflict have to be set up?

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Yeah, I'd agree with that definition of flaming. When I said that my friend was a flaming queen, what I mean is that he wore makeup to work; platform boots; various "interesting" hairstyles, and had a really BIG personality, in the way ehBeth described. Think Jack on "Will and Grace". (Except way less self-involved, one of the sweetest people ever.)

Meanwhile, I know lots of gay guys who are completely "straight-acting." One is Republican and conservative, you'd never look twice at him/ suspect if you didn't already know. Most of the people I know are somewhere in the middle.

In terms of this:

Momma Angel wrote:

I am thinking that my concept of homosexuality being a choice may be what needs the redefining. It appears from what others have shared here and what I have been reading that it's not that people choose to have the homosexual feelings, it's they choose whether or not to (I don't know the right word here. I don't want to offend anyone by using the wrong word) "carry out" those feelings? So, it's possible that yes, people are born that way but they make a choice later on about it?

one of the main points I have been trying to make is that I think the intensity of the predisposition varies. That makes a difference to me in this context, because while it can be bearable for a "3", for example, to be in a heterosexual relationship -- he or she is capable of having sexual feelings for both genders -- it is not so bearable for a "6" to be in a heterosexual relationship. A "6" is attracted to the same sex, period. A "6" has no viable choice but being in a homosexual relationship.

So I think the "choice" that a "3" makes and the "choice" that a "6" makes are very different choices.

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Or to put it another way:

People who are bisexual have choices that people who are homosexual do not; and as per the title of this thread and how it arose, what we're really talking about is the people who are homosexual. (The sixes.)

Assuming you are a zero -- no attraction to the same sex at all -- is it really a "choice" for you to only have sexual relationships with men? Is there any other choice that is viable for you?

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Phoenix,

Thank you for your post. I do have a couple of questions for you. How old were you when this happened? Did you have much experience being around homosexuals before this? I have to tell everyone, I feel kind of funny typing "homosexuals, etc." because it feels like I'm pointing out something here. I hope everyone understands that it's just in reference to the issue at hand? I'm sure you all do. I think it's my conflicting feelings right now that are the basis for my caution.

Did you get a chance to talk to these gentlemen, Phoenix? You said that outwardly (not exact quote) that you wouldn't have known by their demeanor, etc. So, I am thinking that is what ehBeth referred to as style?

The gentleman that I told of earlier that left his wife and kids had absolutely no outward signs of homosexuality either. But, after he left his wife and started living with this younger man, everything about his outer appearance changed. The way he dressed was different. His voice was different. His body language was different. I never got into discussions about this with him because I knew his wife and it just wasn't any of my business, but I have always been very curious as to why this change occurred. Do you think it might have been what he was all along and he was suppressing it? Phoenix, I'm not talking about a gradual change. I am talking overnight. He went home from work one day in a suit and tie and all macho and the next day he comes in with a pink sweater tied around his neck type of thing. I know how that statement sounds! Please don't take it in a bad way. I was just trying to show the extreme of the situation. I didn't understand the change. But, he was still the same guy to me; outside different, but the same man.

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