Questions about Homosexuality

I'm back.

Teachableness is a wonderful quality. :-)

I grew up in a pretty liberal/ tolerant sort of atmosphere, and in high school I did a lot of civil rights type advocacy for a variety of causes including gay/ lesbian, and have worked with and known gay and lesbian people for a long time. Except for some sniggering stuff as a kid, ("Are you a homo sapien?" "NO!" "Oh, you're not human, huh? <chortle>") (what can I say, nerd humor), homosexuality = bad wasn't really on my own radar much.

Anyway, I say that because Phoenix reminds me that my own culture shock eye-opener came when I was vacationing with my husband's family, right after his cousin came out. The vacation included about a dozen family members including my M-I-L and her sister (the cousin's mom). My husband had long known that Angie (not real name) was lesbian -- he was one of the first people in her family she had come out to. (They are about the same age and were always particularly close.)

My M-I-L and her sister are very religious, and this was just devastating to them. Shocked

I understood, in the sense of knowing their background and why it was devastating to them, but it was still a bit of a jaw-dropper for me to see them sobbing and consoling each other and acting like someone had died or something. So she's lesbian! Big deal!

They came around. Angie met someone and adopted a sweet little boy, just a little younger than sozlet. (They met when they were both babies, loved each other. Have to get them back together.) Now Angie's mom is just as proud of that grandson as her other grandchildren, and just as proud of Angie as her other children, and has come so far from her initial shock, which I happened to be witness to.

Anyway, kind of a random story, just brought to mind by Phoenix's, and by the general idea of having eyes opened to other perspectives. Awfully glad that Angie's mom did come around, and that the family is now as close as ever.

(Came up with another thought experiment when I was away, will do that next.)

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Okay, will be looking forward to it!

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Momma Angel wrote:

I'm with you so far on your thoughts there, sozobe. Did you have to bring redheads into it though? I am a redhead.

OK, I'm gonna press this a bit then. :-) Just a little thought experiment, but might get us somewhere.

So you live during a time when redheads are seen as evil, wanton, sporting the color of the devil. Families hang their heads in shame when they see that a child has red hair. People on the street point and make comments. Men don't want to marry redheaded women. People don't want to give redheads jobs.

Now -- you can dye your hair, of course. And given how much easier life is with black hair, you do. But life is still fraught with danger -- are your roots showing? Did anyone see you pick up that black dye and wonder why you needed it? Are your freckles giving you away? If they find out, what will they do to you?

If you meet someone who seems sympathetic, do you go ahead and tell that person just to get it off your chest? What if telling her turns her against you? What if she only likes you because she thinks you really have black hair?

Now... imagine that attitudes start to change. You no longer have to seriously worry about being killed for having red hair, though that's still a peripheral concern, since there are still extremists. But people in general are starting to be more accepting. There are laws against not hiring redheads, against not renting houses to redheads. You think... maybe I can finally be who I am. Maybe I can stop making the choice to buy black dye.

You go ahead and try it. Your family is appalled -- how could you shame them in this way! Your circle of friends is shaken up -- some of them can't deal with it, others become closer because they're fine with it and you appreciate that in them.

You go one day, and the next, and there are lots of little things -- people giving you looks, mothers telling their kids not to stare -- but you know, it's OK. Nothing too terrible is happening. You still have your job. Nobody has beaten you up yet.

Do you think you might not only stop dying your hair, but maybe wear it down? Maybe wear some green to bring it out? Luxuriate a bit in finally being able to be yourself?

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Sozobe,

I will be with you in just a few minutes. On a voicechat right now but I definitely want to address this last post of yours.

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No rush, 'cause I'm turning off the computer as soon as I click "submit". See ya in the morning...

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sozobe,

First, I am having just a bit of trouble equating being a redhead and being homosexual in the context of the story. But, that's because of my mindset and I can realize that.

In the context you mean it in, yes. I can see pretty much how this is so devastating to someone. I can only imagine and probably can't even come close to imagining what this issue does to people.

I cannot imagine not being able to be who I am, redhead, or whatever. I've never had to face that. I am beginning to get an appreciation for this I believe.

Looking forward to more tomorrow!

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Momma Angel wrote:

I am a redhead.

That explains it all right there in a nutshell Smile

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I'm looking forward to more about that red-headed thought experiment too. I need to catch up on this thread! It moved fast and is really interesting.

For anyone:
Have there been any vigorious, reliable studies linking left-handedness/ambi-handedness to gay/bisexual leanings?
Just curious. That would be interesting.

I got a double-whammy of 'sinister' qualities : the omni-loving and the lefthandedness. I'm wondering if this is common or not linked at all.

Chum, that's funny. Laughing

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Sozobe,

I have been thinking quite a bit about your "redhead" scenario. I think I am understanding it much better.

Is what you are saying this:?

It is not really the differences that cause the problem, but the perception of the differences? I got to thinking about this and remembered something. Oprah did a show once that was pretty telling when it came to discrimination, racism, etc. She would tell the audience certain things and then get their reactions. The one I remember most clearly is "studies have shown that people with blue eyes are just not as intelligent, intuitive, insightful, etc. as people with dark eyes."

She started getting audience responses to this and people actually started telling her incidents in their lives that seemed to prove that blue eyed people actually were inferior to dark eyed people. Now, for the home audience, we all knew it was not a real study, but the audience did not. It took a very short time for the people in the audience to suddenly seem to become judgmental and discriminatory against those with blue eyes. Those that had blue eyes, of course, became enraged and indignant. So, is it that man (society, etc.) actually creates the discrimination the second someone decides that there is something wrong with someone else for being different?

I remember being in grade school and being teased because of my red hair and freckles. I can speak to some of that discrimination but I know it was nowhere near what homosexuals must have to face each and every single day.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I know a lot of these things have been said in other threads and it's not that I didn't read them. I think the problem was is that I felt defensive (seems someone just told me that not long ago and I didn't think it was really true, go figure, huh?) because I was standing pretty much alone and felt attacked. I can see now that it was not an attack, but that is how I perceived it. The fact that everyone has been so patient with me (couldn't have been easy I'm sure) and taking the time to talk virtually one on one with me has helped tremendously. I've learned a lot about others and myself and am looking forward to more!

I still would love to talk to Butrflynet's friend.

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flushd wrote:

I'm looking forward to more about that red-headed thought experiment too. I need to catch up on this thread! It moved fast and is really interesting.

For anyone:
Have there been any vigorious, reliable studies linking left-handedness/ambi-handedness to gay/bisexual leanings?
Just curious. That would be interesting.

I got a double-whammy of 'sinister' qualities : the omni-loving and the lefthandedness. I'm wondering if this is common or not linked at all.

Chum, that's funny.

Hm... reliable studies, you say? There aren't really many, vigorous or reliable studies linking anything to gay/bisexual leanings.

I personally search PubMed for my info and this is what I've come up with:

Linkage to Xq28:

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Hamer DH, Hu S, Magnuson VL, Hu N, Pattatucci AM. Science. 1993 Jul 16;261(5119):321-7.

Linkage between sexual orientation and chromosome Xq28 in males but not in females.. Hu S, Pattatucci AM, Patterson C, Li L, Fulker DW, Cherny SS, Kruglyak L, Hamer DH. Nat Genet. 1995 Nov;11(3):248-56.

Unfortuantely, the above reports are contradicted by the following:

Male Male homosexuality: absence of linkage to microsatellite markers at Xq28. Rice G, Anderson C, Risch N, Ebers G. Science. 1999 Apr 23;284(5414):665-7.

Although I don't it's very reliable since there has been no follow up research, there is also a study that supposedly showed a link between hair-whorl rotation and homosexuality.

Hair Excess of counterclockwise scalp hair-whorl rotation in homosexual men. Klar AJ. J Genet. 2004 Dec;83(3):251-5.

There's actually a lot more, but I can't list them all, as that would make my post a really heavy read.

Just go to PubMed at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi and do a search for the following terms:

homosexual xq28
homosexual whorl
homosexual genetic
homosexual epigenetic

Of recent note is the more recent study by Bocklandt S et al:

Extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation in mothers of homosexual men. Bocklandt S, Horvath S, Vilain E, Hamer DH. Hum Genet. 2006 Feb;118(6):691-4. Epub 2005 Dec 21.

Due to the whole possibly unethical nature of such research, there isn't really that much on the subject. However, I do hope I have pointed you guys in the right direction.

P.S. Many of the articles I pointed to you (especially the Nature ones) require you to pay upfront for access.

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By jove, she's got it!

Yup, you got the core of what I was getting at with the redhead scenario. People have decided that all sorts of "abnormalities" are bad over the course of human existence -- again, while it hasn't been in our lifetimes, the negative connotation of red hair was very real for a while. In another thread, I once went through the very real discrimination that people who were left-handed once went through (can recap that if you're interested but main point was already made, I think).

Interesting experiment by Oprah, good for her for doing it.

I'm hoping Wolf will c'mon over.

Do you want me to address echi's "straight or gay" thing that I saw in another thread?

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I shall bookmark, just in case.

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Sozobe,

Woo hoo! I got it! All right! That show on Oprah was something else. She gave lots of other examples and the audience fell right into the trap everytime. I, too, am hoping Wolfie will c'mon over. Yes, please do echi's "straight or gay" thing!

I really got it! I REALLY GOT IT! Laughing

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Soz,
I have come on over. Didn't you see my huge post before yours providing links to research papers on homosexuality and its possible biological causes?

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Wolfie,

I am so glad that you joined us. If you go back a few pages (or I can just ask them again) I explained about some of the questions that I am looking for answers to. I know this is personal and I feel rather awkward asking some of the questions, but I am trying to understand this issue and I think your input could really help me.

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:-D

Well, echi's right here (hi there!) so I can discuss it with him directly. I think it's largely a matter of terminology. Kind of like the "one drop of negro blood makes you a negro" thinking of long ago. People who are 1/16th black (and 15/16ths white) and people who moved here from Africa and have zero white people in their lineage are both called "black".

In the same way, people who have any attraction to their own sex or who have ever acted on it have been called "homosexual", even if it is just once or twice. While flushd or Chumly can maybe go into that more, that's often one of the struggles of people who are bisexual -- OK, if I like that particular (same-sex girl/ guy), does that mean I'm gay?? But wait, I still like that (opposite-sex girl/ guy), too... <confusion>

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I did not see your huge post until I clicked submit, nope. (Note that they were posted at the same time. Laughing

) Great to have you here.

Have you managed to read the whole thread? At 26 pages, I know that's a serious undertaking. If you're not so inclined, I can point you to a couple of the more pertinent spots.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wolfie,

I am so glad that you joined us. If you go back a few pages (or I can just ask them again) I explained about some of the questions that I am looking for answers to. I know this is personal and I feel rather awkward asking some of the questions, but I am trying to understand this issue and I think your input could really help me.

I'm afraid you'll have to repost them. I've been looking back and I see something that might have been a question you want me to answer, but it was hidden in so much text I thought, maybe it wasn't it.

And yes, pointing me out to the more impertinent spots would be very nice. Thank you very much.

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Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:

Sozobe,

I need to know what the homosexual person themselves thinks. I need to understand the process (not a good choice of words) of realizing you are homosexual to actually accepting it and living it.

1. When they first realize this about themselves, what goes through their mind? Do they think it's ok? If so, why? If not, why? Do they think it's not ok because of others or because of what they feel or believe themselves?

2. For those that decide to follow their orientation (am I getting better at the terms?) what are their main concerns? Living their life as they believe it is or should be or conforming to society for reasons of their own?

3. For those that decide not to follow their orientation, why not? What keeps them from following it? Society? Their own beliefs?

I know these questions are so personal but this is such a complex issue. And, it's not a one size fits all, so going on limited information is completely unfair to everyone IMO.

Wolfie,

I hope this isn't too personal and if it is, I completely understand.

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Momma Angel wrote:

...Oprah did a show once that was pretty telling when it came to discrimination, racism, etc. She would tell the audience certain things and then get their reactions. The one I remember most clearly is "studies have shown that people with blue eyes are just not as intelligent, intuitive, insightful, etc. as people with dark eyes."....

Actually, this is nothing new. It was an experiment performed by a public school teacher named Jane Elliott in 1968, in response to the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. http://www.janeelliott.com/

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1132480 and here's an interview: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/crusade.html

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