J_B,
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pass that up. What choice did Sue make? Well, I guess the choice she made was to act on her feelings for Betty? She made the choice to no longer live as a hetereoseuxal but as a homosexual? Is that what you mean?
That's an interesting thought experiment, then, thanks Dys for bringing it up and Butrflynet for expanding on it (and you for going for it).
You got my main point with Leviticus, there are a bunch of other things that are still pending so let's wrap up some of that before going further with bible stuff.
That's fine with me, sozobe. I'm right with you.
Momma Angel wrote:J_B,
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pass that up. What choice did Sue make? Well, I guess the choice she made was to act on her feelings for Betty? She made the choice to no longer live as a hetereoseuxal but as a homosexual? Is that what you mean?
You're the one who said Sue is gay by choice, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that. Even from what you said here it can be said that Sue chose to spend her life with someone she fell in love with. Why does it matter who that person is? Why shouldn't Sue and Betty get to live 'happily ever after' just like the rest of us? Who does it hurt? There's only one answer to that last one, it hurts no one.
The alternative to Sue spending her life with a person she's in love with is... what would you suggest for Sue?
To pick up on an earlier thing you said about "norms" or "normal", it's true that in the strictest sense ("Commonly encountered: average, common, commonplace, general, ordinary, typical, usual), homosexuality is not normal.
Just, then what? Lots of other things are abnormal in that sense, too. Being left-handed, having red hair. Those aren't just random -- both of those things have a history of being seen as evil, have associations with the devil.
Quote:For thousands of years, the Devil has been associated with the left hand in various ways and is normally portrayed as being left-handed in pictures and other images. In the seventeenth century it was thought that the Devil baptised his followers with his left-hand and there are many references in superstitions to the "left-hand side" being associated with evil. As an example, in France it was held that witches greet Satan "avec le bras gauche" or with the left hand. It is also considered that we can only see ghosts if we look over our left shoulder and that the Devil watches us over the left shoulder.
http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/lefty_myths.html
Quote:They were transformed into the devil with his red hair and red beard. Red haired women were reputed to be witches and whores and the poppy became the devil's flower.
http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/color/reds4.html
So, should red-heads not be allowed to marry? Should lefties make the choice to write with their right hands?
(Need to go for a while btw, back later...)
J_B,
I think maybe you might be misunderstanding me a bit here. Can't say I'd be surprised because I'm probably not real clear at times.
There are those that say homosexuality is choice and those that say it is not. So, in order for me to even understand how some say it is and some say it isn't I need to understand from those directly involved in this to tell me how it was for them.
Sue didn't say she was homosexual by choice. She said, she never had thoughts or tendancies until she met Betty. So, for her, the choice she made was to follow those thoughts, feelings, etc. Now, some will say Sue isn't homosexual but is just engaging in a homosexual lifestyle. It's confusing for me.
J_B, I'm not saying it DOES matter who the person is and I'm not saying it DOESN'T matter who the person is. I'm trying to understand as much of this as I can.
I am trying to rid my vocabulary, thought processes, etc., of anything discriminatory about this. I don't want to discriminate in any way, J_B. But, if I don't have all the information I need then I can't see where I am being that way.
I am beginning to see how I am and I'm willing to look at it. I'm not making any judgments on anyone here, please understand that. That is the last thing I want to do. That is exactly what I want the information for. I realize I should probably just understand that I shouldn't be doing it. I understand that. But, I have 50 years of having a mindset that needs some changing. I can't go from one way one second to another way another second. I must have some understanding of how I was wrong and why I was wrong and need to know the things that allow me to see it better.
Momma Angel wrote:Sue didn't say she was homosexual by choice. She said, she never had thoughts or tendancies until she met Betty. So, for her, the choice she made was to follow those thoughts, feelings, etc. Now, some will say Sue isn't homosexual but is just engaging in a homosexual lifestyle. It's confusing for me.
Did Sue ever talk to you about any heterosexual thoughts/tendencies/activities she may have had prior to meeting Betty?
I've been wondering <from reading your posts about B and S> if Sue just never met anyone who turned her crank til she met Betty. Some people don't seem to have any strong sexual response til they meet one of the right people for them.
ehBeth,
Sue has had heterosexual relationships her whole life until Betty. She said it was kind of like when she met Betty a light bulb went on or something. So, I don't know if that means she always had the tendancies or thoughts and they just didn't surface until she met the right person or not. Sue just said, "When I met Betty, I just knew I was supposed to be with her."
It seems as though Sue was fine in her heterosexual relationships and she said orientation other than heterosexuality never entered into it. So, this is confusing for me as it seems she went from one way one day to another way the next. The 0-6 scale explanation is the closest I have come to understanding this.
Momma- I assume that Sue lives in your area, which is a very conservative, Bible belt place. In places where prohibitions against homosexuality are very strong, many people "go with the flow", and do not consider anything besides the accepted norm, to the point that gay tendencies are repressed.
I would also think that when Sue met Betty, for the first time in her life, "the earth moved". It was then that she realized, for the first time, that she fell in love with a woman. The fact that they are together for so long, tells me that their relationship was not a fluke, or a momentary fling.
One of the reasons that gay people live in great numbers in certain places, like Key West, San Francisco, Orlando and Greenwich Village, is that homosexuality is readily accepted, and they are free to be themselves.
Momma Angel wrote: Sue just said, "When I met Betty, I just knew I was supposed to be with her."
Thanks MoAn.
Sue and Betty are lucky to have found each other.
The scale's always made a lot of sense to me. That, in combination with an awareness that people's sexual interest/feelings/ ebb and flow over time makes a lot of relationships easier to understand from the outside.
Sometimes you're just simmering along nicely til you meet the one that makes you boil over sexually. I suspect if you're a 3 or 4, that boiling point could be inspired by 'the right one' of either gender - even if you'd always been with a different gender when you'd been simmering.
No problem, ehBeth. I think you'd really like Betty and Sue. I'm keeping them updated, actually, I'm sure they are watching this. They are getting a big kick out of it. Sue says, "Well, I told you we weren't the PERFECT couple to get information from!" They are teasing me about finally trying to really get all the information. What can I say? I hope I never stop being teachable. It'd be nice if I'd recognize a lot sooner when I am getting to that point though. :wink:
Phoenix,
I am so sorry about your nephew. Such a terrible thing to happen to anyone. I am very glad that he had you to talk to. I am sure that meant the world to him.
As far as his father goes, I'm sorry he did not understand what was going on with his son and the fact that his son obviously didn't feel comfortable enough to talk to him about this.
Learning about the feelings that people have concerning this issue is really helping me understand. Thank you for helping.