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Questions about Homosexuality

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:14 pm
Sozobe Wrote:

Quote:
Then you're in violation of Leviticus 19:19:

"Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread."

Treason indeed!

My point there is not to make you feel guilty for wearing a garment woven with two different kinds of thread; my point is that Leviticus, which is often pointed to as a source for "homosexuality is bad", says that a whole lot of other things are bad, too. (A WHOLE lot.)


Sozobe, this is where I am finding some of my conflict, exactly. I think most know, but for those that do not, I believe we are no longer under the Mosaic law. So, yes, I need to reconcile this. I have no problem with you pointing this issue out whatsoever. I need to understand why we are to still follow some of the things in the Old Testament but not some of the other things. I realize how this looks like cherry picking to some and I am definitely willing to delve into this.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:24 pm
J_B wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
J_B,

Okay. For Betty, her homosexuality was never an issue. She just "was" in her words. Her family was very supportive of her and they just let her be who she is. So, for her, she said it wasn't a choice, it just "was".

But Sue started a homosexual lifestyle (is that the right term?) 12 years ago when she met Betty. Sue said she cannot honestly recall ever having any tendancies or thoughts about this until she met Betty. And, it wasn't a problem for her. She fell in love with Betty and they have been together 12 years now and are very happy.

So, my resources with them are a bit lacking. I know this is not the case for every homosexual. If it were this uncomplicated then there wouldn't be any controversary or problem about it I think.



still waiting.....
You didn't answer my question, exactly what *choices* did Sue make?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:24 pm
Butrflynet Wrote:

Quote:
I'll be glad to ask my friends if they'd be willing to come here and answer your questions for you. (I think they already have done so and I included that in my original post in this thread.) In the meantime, would you mind answering those same questions about yourself? It will help me better understand your point of view.

That would be wonderful. I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much!

1. When did you first realize you were interested in boys? What went through your mind? Did you think it's ok? If so, why? If not, why? Did you think it's not ok because of others or because of what you feel or believe?

I think when I was in first grade I had my first crush on a boy. All kinds of silly things went through my mind and it made me feel giddy. I thought it was okay, but hetereosexually was definitely considered the norm when I was in first grade. So, my asking these questions of someone who is homosexual has more to do with their feelings of it being against the norm or something. I am having such a hard time with the right words. So, it's kind of like Betty, she just was. I just was.

2. When you decided to act on your interest in boys, what were your main concerns? Did you live your life as you believed it to be or did you just do it to conform to society?

Again, it didn't go against the norm and I'm guessing because homosexuality is against the norm (please forgive my ignorant words here) that the thought process involves more than it does for those that seem to be conforming to the norm?

3. When you consciously decided not to have any interest in girls, what kept you from it? Society, your own beliefs?

Never thought about girls that way at all, so it wasn't an issue with me. Again, fit was the norm for society when I was at this age and I, and maybe ignorantly, think the fact that it is against the "norm" it then involves much more.

Sozobe,

Do you realize just how discriminatory some of this sounds to me?!! Shocked I am beginning to see how some of my mindset can definitely be considered discriminatory. I don't like it one bit.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:26 pm
J_B,

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pass that up. What choice did Sue make? Well, I guess the choice she made was to act on her feelings for Betty? She made the choice to no longer live as a hetereoseuxal but as a homosexual? Is that what you mean?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:26 pm
That's an interesting thought experiment, then, thanks Dys for bringing it up and Butrflynet for expanding on it (and you for going for it).

You got my main point with Leviticus, there are a bunch of other things that are still pending so let's wrap up some of that before going further with bible stuff.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:28 pm
That's fine with me, sozobe. I'm right with you.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:37 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
J_B,

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pass that up. What choice did Sue make? Well, I guess the choice she made was to act on her feelings for Betty? She made the choice to no longer live as a hetereoseuxal but as a homosexual? Is that what you mean?


You're the one who said Sue is gay by choice, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that. Even from what you said here it can be said that Sue chose to spend her life with someone she fell in love with. Why does it matter who that person is? Why shouldn't Sue and Betty get to live 'happily ever after' just like the rest of us? Who does it hurt? There's only one answer to that last one, it hurts no one.

The alternative to Sue spending her life with a person she's in love with is... what would you suggest for Sue?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:44 pm
To pick up on an earlier thing you said about "norms" or "normal", it's true that in the strictest sense ("Commonly encountered: average, common, commonplace, general, ordinary, typical, usual), homosexuality is not normal.

Just, then what? Lots of other things are abnormal in that sense, too. Being left-handed, having red hair. Those aren't just random -- both of those things have a history of being seen as evil, have associations with the devil.

Quote:
For thousands of years, the Devil has been associated with the left hand in various ways and is normally portrayed as being left-handed in pictures and other images. In the seventeenth century it was thought that the Devil baptised his followers with his left-hand and there are many references in superstitions to the "left-hand side" being associated with evil. As an example, in France it was held that witches greet Satan "avec le bras gauche" or with the left hand. It is also considered that we can only see ghosts if we look over our left shoulder and that the Devil watches us over the left shoulder.


http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/lefty_myths.html

Quote:
They were transformed into the devil with his red hair and red beard. Red haired women were reputed to be witches and whores and the poppy became the devil's flower.


http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/color/reds4.html

So, should red-heads not be allowed to marry? Should lefties make the choice to write with their right hands?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:45 pm
(Need to go for a while btw, back later...)
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:46 pm
J_B,

I think maybe you might be misunderstanding me a bit here. Can't say I'd be surprised because I'm probably not real clear at times.

There are those that say homosexuality is choice and those that say it is not. So, in order for me to even understand how some say it is and some say it isn't I need to understand from those directly involved in this to tell me how it was for them.

Sue didn't say she was homosexual by choice. She said, she never had thoughts or tendancies until she met Betty. So, for her, the choice she made was to follow those thoughts, feelings, etc. Now, some will say Sue isn't homosexual but is just engaging in a homosexual lifestyle. It's confusing for me.

J_B, I'm not saying it DOES matter who the person is and I'm not saying it DOESN'T matter who the person is. I'm trying to understand as much of this as I can.

I am trying to rid my vocabulary, thought processes, etc., of anything discriminatory about this. I don't want to discriminate in any way, J_B. But, if I don't have all the information I need then I can't see where I am being that way.

I am beginning to see how I am and I'm willing to look at it. I'm not making any judgments on anyone here, please understand that. That is the last thing I want to do. That is exactly what I want the information for. I realize I should probably just understand that I shouldn't be doing it. I understand that. But, I have 50 years of having a mindset that needs some changing. I can't go from one way one second to another way another second. I must have some understanding of how I was wrong and why I was wrong and need to know the things that allow me to see it better.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 05:56 pm
I'm with you so far on your thoughts there, sozobe. Did you have to bring redheads into it though? I am a redhead. Embarrassed

But, I do understand what you are saying. Will be here when you get back.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:07 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Sue didn't say she was homosexual by choice. She said, she never had thoughts or tendancies until she met Betty. So, for her, the choice she made was to follow those thoughts, feelings, etc. Now, some will say Sue isn't homosexual but is just engaging in a homosexual lifestyle. It's confusing for me.


Did Sue ever talk to you about any heterosexual thoughts/tendencies/activities she may have had prior to meeting Betty?

I've been wondering <from reading your posts about B and S> if Sue just never met anyone who turned her crank til she met Betty. Some people don't seem to have any strong sexual response til they meet one of the right people for them.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:10 pm
Quote:
sin·is·ter (sĭn'ĭ-stər)
adj.
Suggesting or threatening evil: a sinister smile.
Presaging trouble; ominous: sinister storm clouds.
Attended by or causing disaster or inauspicious circumstances.
On the left side; left.
Heraldry. Situated on or being the side of a shield on the wearer's left and the observer's right.
[Middle English sinistre, unfavorable, from Old French, from Latin sinister, on the left, unlucky.]


I thought that this might be an interesting sidelight.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:26 pm
ehBeth,

Sue has had heterosexual relationships her whole life until Betty. She said it was kind of like when she met Betty a light bulb went on or something. So, I don't know if that means she always had the tendancies or thoughts and they just didn't surface until she met the right person or not. Sue just said, "When I met Betty, I just knew I was supposed to be with her."

It seems as though Sue was fine in her heterosexual relationships and she said orientation other than heterosexuality never entered into it. So, this is confusing for me as it seems she went from one way one day to another way the next. The 0-6 scale explanation is the closest I have come to understanding this.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:40 pm
Momma- I assume that Sue lives in your area, which is a very conservative, Bible belt place. In places where prohibitions against homosexuality are very strong, many people "go with the flow", and do not consider anything besides the accepted norm, to the point that gay tendencies are repressed.

I would also think that when Sue met Betty, for the first time in her life, "the earth moved". It was then that she realized, for the first time, that she fell in love with a woman. The fact that they are together for so long, tells me that their relationship was not a fluke, or a momentary fling.

One of the reasons that gay people live in great numbers in certain places, like Key West, San Francisco, Orlando and Greenwich Village, is that homosexuality is readily accepted, and they are free to be themselves.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:47 pm
Which is another thing that surprises me, Phoenix. Sue and Betty live near me! And homosexuality is definitely not considered the "norm" here. One of the reasons I love these two so much is because of their courage. No matter what, they stick to what they feel is right. They don't hurt anyone. They are two of the nicest women I've ever met. Not that they wouldn't be and some are so nasty to them just because they are lesbians. And, you can't say that either of them would fit the stereotypical "butch" category either. Quite the contrary.

Phoenix, for a 50 year old woman that has looked at things one way for so long the whole situation is surprising to me. Yes, there are some here that are very nasty to Betty and Sue and I can't stand it. Now even though they tell me I have not been discriminatory toward them, I feel I have been.

It's like I got a good slap in the face with Aqua Velva or something. (Ooops! Showing my age for sure. Embarrassed )
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:51 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Sue just said, "When I met Betty, I just knew I was supposed to be with her."


Thanks MoAn.

Sue and Betty are lucky to have found each other.

The scale's always made a lot of sense to me. That, in combination with an awareness that people's sexual interest/feelings/ ebb and flow over time makes a lot of relationships easier to understand from the outside.

Sometimes you're just simmering along nicely til you meet the one that makes you boil over sexually. I suspect if you're a 3 or 4, that boiling point could be inspired by 'the right one' of either gender - even if you'd always been with a different gender when you'd been simmering.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:59 pm
No problem, ehBeth. I think you'd really like Betty and Sue. I'm keeping them updated, actually, I'm sure they are watching this. They are getting a big kick out of it. Sue says, "Well, I told you we weren't the PERFECT couple to get information from!" They are teasing me about finally trying to really get all the information. What can I say? I hope I never stop being teachable. It'd be nice if I'd recognize a lot sooner when I am getting to that point though. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:16 pm
MA wrote:
And, you can't say that either of them would fit the stereotypical "butch" category either. Quite the contrary.


Many gays look and act just like straights. I think that Soz explained very well, about the concept of "style", and the tendency of flamboyance that some gays adopt.

My nephew (my husband's sister's son) looked like an average American guy. There was not a thing about him that would indicate that he was gay. The only reason that I knew, was that when he was diagnosed with AIDS, he used to make cracks about his immune system.

It was in the early years of AIDS, when the average person knew little about the illness. I was required to take a certification in AIDS education for my profession, so I knew quite a bit about it at the time. I remember looking at him straight in the eye, and asked him whether he had been prescribed AZT yet. He looked at me and said, "How did you know?" After that, he would talk to me about it.

He was totally shocked that I knew. His parents didn't. His dad, who was a Misssissippi redneck, thought that his son was a "bum", because after awhile he was out of work a lot. His dad died, never knowing that his son was gay. I think that his mom and brothers knew near the end.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:24 pm
Phoenix,

I am so sorry about your nephew. Such a terrible thing to happen to anyone. I am very glad that he had you to talk to. I am sure that meant the world to him.

As far as his father goes, I'm sorry he did not understand what was going on with his son and the fact that his son obviously didn't feel comfortable enough to talk to him about this.

Learning about the feelings that people have concerning this issue is really helping me understand. Thank you for helping.
0 Replies
 
 

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