Questions about Homosexuality

Well, that's what most of the last 20 pages have been about. :-)

What is your thinking at this point about whether it is something people are born with/ who they are (Rev. Schenck's "deeply rooted") vs. homosexuality being a choice?

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Quote:

That's a good one . But, I'm still learning about why people are homosexuals so I can't debate that point with you yet.

What have you learned so far? I'd be interested in what you've learned about homosexuals as a result of you being able to ask your questions here and have them answered by not only statistical and scientific studies but also personal anecdotes.

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Heh, get outta my head Soz, and I'll get outta yours. Wink

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;-)

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Well, so far, it appears that there are some that homosexuality is, indeed a choice such as in the case of Sue with Betty.

However, there are those that struggle with this issue from way back into their childhood. I have not completely discounted anything at this point, sozobe. I have a little clearer understanding of some of the things those go through, but I wish there was someone I could talk to that had these feelings from very early childhood and did not start living as a homosexual until later in life and to try to understand all of their reasoning for this. I know some of it is probably because of the way others would treat them and I completely understand that.

I understand that it is a very hard thing for people to go through. In order for me to set it straight in my mind exactly what may or may not be a choice for them, I need more information.

Ok, let me kind of explain something. I have been listening to a gentleman in a Christian Chat Room this week. He is in his early 30's and has been an active homosexual for most of his life. Well, last week he became a Christian. HE believes that homosexuality is wrong. This is HIS belief and choice to not actively engage in homosexuality. But, he is struggling with this. My heart goes out to him, sozobe. He wants to do the right thing for himself and this must be so difficult for him.

And he said that he did not decide this was wrong from anyone telling him this. He said that he himself decided this by reading the Bible. Now, I can only go on what he says. So, if I could talk to someone who has been through a pretty tough time deciding what was right for them in this situation, I think I might understand a bit better.

But, this is such a personal thing and I do not want to pry into anyone's life or offend them by asking these questions. I do feel somewhat less conflicted though and that helps a lot.

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Could you please explain to me exactly what choices Betty and Sue made?

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Momma Angel wrote:

but I wish there was someone I could talk to that had these feelings from very early childhood and did not start living as a homosexual until later in life and to try to understand all of their reasoning for this.

May I ask why? What part of that story hasn't already been addressed... what part do you need clarification on?

As for your friend in the Christian chat room, I wish him luck too. There are zillions of stories like his, though -- it's one of the most common stories out there. A person is homosexual, receives the message (put out by people like you, PoetSeductress, and many many others) that homosexuality is wrong, internalizes it, and decides to change.

Deciding is fine, but he is a week into it. Where is he going to go from here?

What is extremely typical in this situation is that a person who is homosexual decides he shouldn't be -- tries -- and fails. He's homosexual, that's the way it is. Imagine that you received messages from everywhere that heterosexuality was wrong, and so you set out to try to find a woman to enter into a long-term relationship with. Could you do it?

Then, when these people fail, they feel even worse about themselves, and since doing it at all is so wrong (in their minds), often don't bother to practice safe sex.

If where you are is whether the bible actually says that homosexuality is wrong, I'm willing to pursue that. It seems much less certain than you seem to think -- J_B implied that with her quote about what most modern Christian churches think about homosexuality, but I've found some interesting stuff about it just purely in terms of the bible, if you want to go there.

I'd start that by asking, have you ever worn anything that was a cotton/ polyester blend?

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J_B,

Okay. For Betty, her homosexuality was never an issue. She just "was" in her words. Her family was very supportive of her and they just let her be who she is. So, for her, she said it wasn't a choice, it just "was".

But Sue started a homosexual lifestyle (is that the right term?) 12 years ago when she met Betty. Sue said she cannot honestly recall ever having any tendancies or thoughts about this until she met Betty. And, it wasn't a problem for her. She fell in love with Betty and they have been together 12 years now and are very happy.

So, my resources with them are a bit lacking. I know this is not the case for every homosexual. If it were this uncomplicated then there wouldn't be any controversary or problem about it I think.

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We're asking, what resources, though?

That one scenario covers most of the bases. Betty was born homosexual, and knew from the beginning, and was never interested in men. A six, or homosexual. Sue was born bisexual, never thought of being attracted to women (remember what I said about default mode?), then met Betty and fell. A three, or bisexual.

That seems to have been pretty thoroughly covered. What is your current confusion or hesitation or lack of resources?

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Momma Angel wrote:

J_B,

Okay. For Betty, her homosexuality was never an issue. She just "was" in her words. Her family was very supportive of her and they just let her be who she is. So, for her, she said it wasn't a choice, it just "was".

But Sue started a homosexual lifestyle (is that the right term?) 12 years ago when she met Betty. Sue said she cannot honestly recall ever having any tendancies or thoughts about this until she met Betty. And, it wasn't a problem for her. She fell in love with Betty and they have been together 12 years now and are very happy.

So, my resources with them are a bit lacking. I know this is not the case for every homosexual. If it were this uncomplicated then there wouldn't be any controversary or problem about it I think.

You didn't answer my question, exactly what *choices* did Sue make?

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Momma Angel wrote:

If it were this uncomplicated then there wouldn't be any controversary or problem about it I think.

I have no idea what this means.

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Sozobe,

I need to know what the homosexual person themselves thinks. I need to understand the process (not a good choice of words) of realizing you are homosexual to actually accepting it and living it.

1. When they first realize this about themselves, what goes through their mind? Do they think it's ok? If so, why? If not, why? Do they think it's not ok because of others or because of what they feel or believe themselves?

2. For those that decide to follow their orientation (am I getting better at the terms?) what are their main concerns? Living their life as they believe it is or should be or conforming to society for reasons of their own?

3. For those that decide not to follow their orientation, why not? What keeps them from following it? Society? Their own beliefs?

I know these questions are so personal but this is such a complex issue. And, it's not a one size fits all, so going on limited information is completely unfair to everyone IMO.

And, I would not mind at all getting into the Biblical references to this sozobe. I would, of course, have to do some research to make sure that I can explain my understanding of it. I am willing to look at this. I won't promise anything about an outcome but I will look at it and keep an open-mind. But, if I am having a conflict with it about anything scripturally or my beliefs I will tell you so you can understand my thought process about it and what I am dealing with trying to work through this.

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J_B,

LOL. I'm not so sure I know what it meant either! What I mean is, perhaps if all homosexuals were alike and there weren't so many different aspects/levels(?)? (Man, I hate this. I don't know the right words!) then maybe it would be easier to understand.

Sozobe,

Did my post above with my direct questions help you understand more what I mean?

Everyone, please try to understand. Homosexuality is something that has always been portrayed in my life experience as the ultimate no-no. So, I never really bothered to try to understand it. Because of my religious beliefs (I'll get into the specifics when we start talking about this scripturally) it's almost like I'm committing treason or something. I know God does not want me to be ignorant about things but it still feels like I am crossing boundaries or something. I guess the best way to describe it is I'm out of my comfort zone here.

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Haven't those questions already been answered, though?

(Any gay members out there who can humor her by answering?)

Here are a few results of "coming out stories", with lots of first-person narratives that answer your questions:

http://www.bibble.org/gay/stories/comingout.html
This one is a good example there:
http://www.bibble.org/gay/stories/comingout/not_a_choice.html

Excerpt:

Quote:

When I was teen-aged, I was attracted to other guys. When I went away to
college, I was ashamed of my attraction and strove dilligently to be
attracted to women; I really wanted a relationship and wanted to be loved
and to love another person in "that special way." I dated women, but was
sexually attracted to men. When I was 20, I fell in love with a woman
and at age 21, we got married. I hoped my attraction to men would just
sort of drift away or stop completely. I struggled for 14 years in this
marriage and had two children. I tried and tried and tried to be happy
in my marriage, but the underlying fact was that I was gay. Period. I
really tried to choose to be straight, but it just wouldn't work.
Finally, after years of struggling and a lot of counseling and therapy,
we decided it was best to end the marriage. So, from personal
experience, I can honestly say that one does not CHOOSE one's sexual
orientation. It is not a choice. It just is. No one, I don't care how
vehement they are, can ever convince me that it is a choice to go through
the hell that I did. I wouldn't choose to be gay, if it were a choice.
I'd much rather live the simple life and not have to defent myself
against boneheads and bigots. I couldn't and I suggest that no one
really can choose their sexual orientation. I'm happy to say now that my
ex-wife continues to be a good friend and is supportive of my
relationship with another man; my children love me (in fact, my 16 year
old son LIVES with my partner and me); my family of origin hasn't
rejected me; and I have a strong spiritual life (non-christian). The
only people that I have problems with are those who don't even try to
understand what I've been through and look at the world through their
narrow view that says "god" hates me and that justifies their bigotry and
ignorance.

Repeat after me: "It's not a choice to be gay or straight. It just is."

Bob

This one seems pretty comprehensive, with a search function and everything:

http://www.outpath.com/

I have had lots of conversations about this, and can give my answers based on those conversations:

1.) The answer to this one is almost always, no, they don't think it's OK. They're terrified and want it to go away. This goes back to default mode. Default mode in the US today is that heterosexual relationships are good, healthy, and what is done -- homosexual relationships are bad, scary, and to be avoided if possible. This can be overcome, but it's default.

2.) I think the main concern is, this sexual orientation is not going away, I need to learn to deal with it, how do I do so?

3.) I think "society" and "their own beliefs" is too entertwined here... people's beliefs are hugely influenced by society. If a child grows up in a family, community, and society that thinks homosexuality is bad, that child will probably grow up thinking that homosexuality is bad, too.

If you want to go on the bible tangent, please answer the question about whether you've worn a garment that was a poly/ cotton mix, ever.

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so MA, any gay person ever sit down with you and ask you to explain how you came about to be heterosexual? Think about it, really think about it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Sozobe,

Did my post above with my direct questions help you understand more what I mean?

Not really. :-) I think you already have the answers to those questions but are hitting the brick wall that jpinmilwaukee predicted in his worst-case scenario. I understand about this all being very deep-seated and hard to transcend, but the conversation stops going anywhere when you stop even trying.

I know you say you're trying, but when you're asking questions that have been answered several times over, it doesn't seem like it. It seems like you're treading water.

Again, even the worst-case scenario (that after all of this, you slip right back into more comfortable ideological grooves without offering any substantial reason for doing so) is acceptable to me -- I don't particularly expect any breakthroughs. Just going to go ahead and keep at this as long as it seems that we're getting anywhere.

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Sozobe,

I hope you're not getting impatient with me. Yes, those help. They help quite a bit. But, I feel like I need a heart to heart with someone that can talk to me about this from beginning to present with them. The more I read, the more questions that come up. I don't know if that's good or not.

I am going to look into that site. There seems to be quite a bit of information there and I may be able to get the information I feel I am missing.

I'm sorry if I seem to be missing something here. I think what it is, is the fact that I cannot tell you or anyone the very root of why this is so important to me, because I honestly do not know myself.

But, no tangent! I promise. And, I will do my best to provide evidence for what I bring up. I'm trying to learn how to do this debate thing.

Yes, I have worn a garment that was a poly/cotton mix.

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dys,

Though I understand what you are saying I don't think it is the same thing. Now, if a homosexual wanted to sit down and talk to me about that I would do it. I would explain how it is for me and my experience. However, heterosexuality is universally accepted and not considered against the norm, more or less. Homosexuality is the opposite. Yes, that is changing, but it is changing late in my life and it's hard for me to just go from thinking one way all my life to ZAP now I need to think differently. It's not that easy for me. Maybe it should be, but it's not. But, I am trying. Maybe I'm trying too hard. But, I AM TRYING.

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Then you're in violation of Leviticus 19:19:

"Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread."

Treason indeed! ;-)

My point there is not to make you feel guilty for wearing a garment woven with two different kinds of thread; my point is that Leviticus, which is often pointed to as a source for "homosexuality is bad", says that a whole lot of other things are bad, too. (A WHOLE lot.)

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I'll be glad to ask my friends if they'd be willing to come here and answer your questions for you. (I think they already have done so and I included that in my original post in this thread.) In the meantime, would you mind answering those same questions about yourself? It will help me better understand your point of view.

1. When did you first realize you were interested in boys? What went through your mind? Did you think it's ok? If so, why? If not, why? Did you think it's not ok because of others or because of what you feel or believe?

2. When you decided to act on your interest in boys, what were your main concerns? Did you live your life as you believed it to be or did you just do it to conform to society?

3. When you consciously decided not to have any interest in girls, what kept you from it? Society, your own beliefs?

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