I asked him to leave...

Are things different when you get married? Why is it that some people can live together for like 10 years, get married, then three months later be filing for divorce. I don't understand any of this stuff. *shakes her head*

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Some people have very particular expectations of marriage, that simply aren't always met by the real experience of marriage.

I've had friends who've been together for decades <literally> that still think their partner will change when they marry - and the partner doesn't change - and there can be disappointment about that.

mrs. hamburger says if you can't accept the person for who they are before you marry them - then you should leave them alone - it's not fair to them to expect them to change.

piffka always suggested that men are trainable - and should be trained.

I lean more toward mrs. hamburger's perspective on this, partly because I'm not interested in a 'trainable' partner. I don't have the desire or energy to train another adult.

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ehBeth wrote:

Part of your answer may be in here

hephzibah wrote:
I shouldn't have ----- so quickly.

It's been a month since you asked him to leave. Maybe spend some time thinking before you bounce into the next activity.

~~~~~~~

and as a sidebar, just because you said you'd only marry once - so what.

We all say things that don't make perfect sense <for us> once we've had a chance to reflect on them. Circumstances change. We change.

You're still quite a young woman. Don't tie yourself up in anyone's 'rules', including your own. Be flexible. It's a good thing.

~~~~~~~

I'm at least a decade older than you are, hephzibah, and I'm still learning about myself and my relationships and my needs every blinkin' day - and I know that learning isn't going to slow down anytime soon.

That's true ehbeth. Well... hmmm... I'm not looking to bounce into anything else right now except possibly this divorce. I just this to be over. I've held on for a month now hoping that by some miracle of God or whatever he would decide that even if how I am feeling is completely irrational to him, he loves me enough to at least try counseling before we call it quits permanently. I think I finally realized today that's just not going to happen. He will only go to counseling if I let him move back in. I will not let him move back in unless he is willing to go to counseling and participate until I can feel safe in our relationship again. I don't think I'm wrong in asking that of him. I don't feel safe. It seems to me if he really loved me as much as he said he did he would be willing to make some effort too. Am I wrong here?

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Hezp, don't worry about being fair, protect your own interests. I only read the first and this page so I don't know if you have children. If you don't then no problem. Divorces are made in heaven.
My first wife and I divorced (amicably) after 11 years of marriage and five years later, I married a wonderful woman who died twenty years later of cancer. What did I do? After a brief period of grieving, I married my first wife again. We've been together for more than 15 years--VERY HAPPILY. I always pursue my interests, and I expect others to do the same. That doesn't mean that one has a right to be cruel, but most important one must take care of oneself. You are your principal responsibility (unless there are kids, of course).

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Most women think marriage makes a big difference, most guys not so much.
Many more women have idealized romantic notions that marriage will make everything better.

Ever seen the TV show Bridezilla?

Weddings are more for women,I am a musician and I do a lot of weddings.

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Heph--

Is the Sacrament of Marriage an absolute reality or is it a reflection of the joining of two compatable souls?

Does the Sacrament of Marriage make silk purses out of sow's/boar's ears?

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Nope, no kids.

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Noddy24 wrote:

Heph--

Is the Sacrament of Marriage an absolute reality or is it a reflection of the joining of two compatable souls?

Does the Sacrament of Marriage make silk purses out of sow's/boar's ears?

Hmmm... not exactly sure what you mean here?

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Chumly wrote:

Most women think marriage makes a big difference, most guys not so much.
Many more women have idealized romantic notions that marriage will make everything better.

Ever seen the TV show Bridezilla?

Weddings are more for women,I am a musician and I do a lot of weddings.

Weddings and marriages are very different things.

I'd agree that it seems most weddings are based in the bride's interests, but it's generally seemed to me that men are more interested in being married than women are. That may be a particular phenomenon of my age and social circumstances - but it's been the man pushing the idea of marriage, not the woman, in the majority of my friends' relationships.

<and there's no doubt my social group is non-standard - most of the women aren't into the wedding part either>

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Heph--

You don't belief in divorce because marriage is a sacrament.

Does Holy Matrimony create a union or bless a union?

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ehBeth wrote:

.........but it's generally seemed to me that men are more interested in being married than women are.

That's what guys want you to think! Put it another way. Ask the average guy if they would rather have a brand new Corvette or get married. Then ask the average girl the same question.

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That's a good question. One I have never thought about before to be honest. I always thought that Holy Matrimony created the union. Have I been wrong about that?

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I only have a couple more questions I guess and then I'm done. Am I a fool? Does doing this:

Quote:

I've held on for a month now hoping that by some miracle of God or whatever he would decide that even if how I am feeling is completely irrational to him, he loves me enough to at least try counseling before we call it quits permanently.

make me a fool? Is this an unrealistic expectation on my part? These are the questions that rattle around my brain a lot lately. These are the things I can't seem to find any answer to. I feel like a fool sometimes. I feel like maybe I'm being unrealistic, or maybe my expectations are too high. Maybe somehow without totally realizing it I'm putting some sort of stipulation on his love. Shoot... I don't really know. But I do know that feelings don't always give us the right answers to things.

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First principle of life, don't generalize about the sexes. Individuals within both genders differ remarkably. I find all the women I've known to be unique.
I, for one, have placed TOO MUCH faith in the power of love and marriage to make me happy. I think one of the most stupid things people can do is to vow to always love someone else. I can promise to behave in particular ways, but I cannot promise to feel in particular ways. BUT wives and husbands (and partners, of course) can vow to behave in ways that promote feelings of love. THAT we can reasonably vow. And that's enough. If someone treats you lovingly and you reciprocate, love is likely to flourish.

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I have to go for now. I just wanted to say this. If I'm being a fool, please don't be afraid to say that to me. I would rather have someone tell me I'm a fool and spare me some pain later on in life, than tell me, "No, no, no, you are fine." As they watch me head towards the next cliff... You know?

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JLNobody wrote:

I think one of the most stupid things people can do is to vow to always love someone else.

I thought the romanticized ideal was to vow to always love the same person Wink

So you are for polyamory then?

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hephzibah wrote:

I have to go for now. I just wanted to say this. If I'm being a fool, please don't be afraid to say that to me. I would rather have someone tell me I'm a fool and spare me some pain later on in life, than tell me, "No, no, no, you are fine." As they watch me head towards the next cliff... You know?

(Spoken)
Okay, so your heart's broken
You sit around hoping
Crying and crying
You say you're even
Thinking about dying
Well, before you do
Anything rash, dig this

Everybody plays the fool sometime
There's no exception to the rule
Listen, baby, it may be
Factual, may be cruel
I ain't lying, everybody
Plays the fool

Falling in love is such
An easy thing to do
And there's no guarantee
That the one you love
Is gonna love you

Ooh, loving eyes, they cannot see
A certain person could never be
Lyrics courtesy Top40db.
Love runs deeper than any ocean
It clouds your mind with emotion

Everybody plays the fool sometime
There's no exception to the rule
Listen, baby, it may be
Factual, may be cruel
I wanna tell you
Everybody plays the fool

How can you help it
When the music starts to play
And your ability to
Reason is swept away

Oh, oh, oh, heaven on
Earth is all you see
You're out of touch with reality
And now you cry but
When you're through
Next time around
Someone cries for you

Everybody plays the fool sometime
They use your heart just like a tool
Listen baby, they never
Tell you so in school
I wanna say it again
Everybody plays the fool

Listen to me, baby
Everybody plays the fool sometime
(No exception to the rule)
No exception to the rule
It may be factual
May be cruel sometimes
Everybody plays the fool

Listen, listen, baby
Everybody plays the fool

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I think there were a lot of things that you did that were foolish.

I think jumping into such a serious relationship -- nevermind marriage -- on such short notice was foolish.

I think getting married on such short notice was more foolish.

(How long ago did you actually meet? We're still talking 6 or 8 months or something before today, right?)

I think those two things are far more foolish than anything you've done since.

Now, we've all done foolish things. And while it's vanishingly rare, I know there are couples who have done the above two things and don't regret it. I say so only because you ask, and because you're asking about something that is a direct result of other foolish things.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going to counseling, per se; I do think you're being extremely wise [NOT foolish] to not accept the condition that he live with you again to do so. Counseling can help everyone clarify their positions, and extricate themselves from the situation more gracefully. Get closure, that kind of thing. It's not only about trying to fix things/ maintain the relationship.

(As an aside, I subscribe to the Mrs. Hamburger school of take 'em as you get 'em and be pleasantly surprised if they get better yet. And take the time to get to know 'em so you know what you're getting.)

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Chumly, I have nothing against polygyny, but I prefer to be committed to one woman at a time. Hypothetically, if my late life were to return to life, I would be in a tremendous bind. Whether I wishedit or not I would love her AND my present wife, at the same time. That's all there is to it. But I would have to choose, wouldn't I, between the two--unless they would want to both live as my wives (informally, of course, because of the legal prohibition against polygyny).
Your right our traditional marriage vow DOES include the absurd promise to have feelings of love until death do you part. How unrealistic. What I said was simply that we can vow to BEHAVE lovingly, but we cannot promise to FEEL in particular ways. That's an impossibility.

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Chumly wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
I have to go for now. I just wanted to say this. If I'm being a fool, please don't be afraid to say that to me. I would rather have someone tell me I'm a fool and spare me some pain later on in life, than tell me, "No, no, no, you are fine." As they watch me head towards the next cliff... You know?
(Spoken)
Okay, so your heart's broken
You sit around hoping
Crying and crying
You say you're even
Thinking about dying
Well, before you do
Anything rash, dig this

Everybody plays the fool sometime
There's no exception to the rule
Listen, baby, it may be
Factual, may be cruel
I ain't lying, everybody
Plays the fool

Falling in love is such
An easy thing to do
And there's no guarantee
That the one you love
Is gonna love you

Ooh, loving eyes, they cannot see
A certain person could never be
Lyrics courtesy Top40db.
Love runs deeper than any ocean
It clouds your mind with emotion

Everybody plays the fool sometime
There's no exception to the rule
Listen, baby, it may be
Factual, may be cruel
I wanna tell you
Everybody plays the fool

How can you help it
When the music starts to play
And your ability to
Reason is swept away

Oh, oh, oh, heaven on
Earth is all you see
You're out of touch with reality
And now you cry but
When you're through
Next time around
Someone cries for you

Everybody plays the fool sometime
They use your heart just like a tool
Listen baby, they never
Tell you so in school
I wanna say it again
Everybody plays the fool

Listen to me, baby
Everybody plays the fool sometime
(No exception to the rule)
No exception to the rule
It may be factual
May be cruel sometimes
Everybody plays the fool

Listen, listen, baby
Everybody plays the fool

Thanks Chumly. That was good. I'm glad you shared it.

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I asked him to leave...

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