Roxxxanne wrote:timberlandko wrote:Some good points there - but I don't agree there is any doubt concerning Williams' culpability or sentence - both were determined and repeatedly have been confirmed under law.
Pretty much moot points in the current instance; The Supremes have just sung, and the song was "That's it for Tookie". Barring a major earthquake at San Quentin, Tookie takes the big ride soon after midnight hits California.
It is astonishing to see how little regard the right-wingers here have for the loss of human life. It is also very revealing.
This goes far beyond right and left Roxx. You don't get any farther left than I do, but I wasn't opposed to his being put to death. I wanted him to live so that he could spend the rest of his life in prison. As I told Timber, I don't consider death a punishment, I consider it a release.
I AM concerned that putting him to death discourages good behavior from the inmates. If I know there is no redemption whatsoever, what reason do I have to behave???
Should good behavior exzempt you from the punishment you deserve? He was to die in prison. If he or anyone is concerned about good behavior, they should be doing that BEFORE the think about killing people. "good beahvior" is a ploy used by every inmate as a way of screwing over the system.
Niether my thoughts nor my prayers go out to a killer who is executed. I save them for the truely deserving.
ralpheb wrote:Should good behavior exzempt you from the punishment you deserve? He was to die in prison. If he or anyone is concerned about good behavior, they should be doing that BEFORE the think about killing people. "good beahvior" is a ploy used by every inmate as a way of screwing over the system.
Niether my thoughts nor my prayers go out to a killer who is executed. I save them for the truely deserving.
Spoken like a true conservative nutjob...probably speak of sanctity of life when discussing abortion yet shriek "let 'er fly" when it's time to bring the axe down on a convicted (and seemingly reformed) criminal.
If "good behavior is a ploy used by every inmate to screw over the system", then you would agree that no one is capable of reform no?
Candidone1, he could turn around your little example and wonder why you are concerned with the life of a convicted killer but are all for killing unborn children.
Since that bit of hypocrisy cuts both ways, it may be best to use other arguments in arguing for the end of the death penalty.
Not one person here will ever know my true heart felt feelings on abortion. That is a discussion I save for the one person I admire and respect-my wife. The abortion issue is not at play here. What is being discussed and the only thing that should be discussed is the view of capital punishment. All people in the Unisted States are fully aware that if they take a life, there is a chance that they will lose theirs in turn. If people are so willing to still commit violent acts of murder, then they are accepting the fact that they too shall deserve to die and should be put to death. I can care less if a person who is sentenced to death or is sentenced to life in prison with out hope of parole, or is senteced to a term that will more than lekely exceed their life span reforms themselves. My concern about reform are for those people serving the short sentences who may be back on the street.
As far as being conservative, I have been called both conservative and liberal. It all depends on the issue.
As far as being a nut job???? well, my shrink says i'm normal.
What's your excuse?
ralpheb wrote:Not one person here will ever know my true heart felt feelings on abortion. That is a discussion I save for the one person I admire and respect-my wife. The abortion issue is not at play here. What is being discussed and the only thing that should be discussed is the view of capital punishment. All people in the Unisted States are fully aware that if they take a life, there is a chance that they will lose theirs in turn. If people are so willing to still commit violent acts of murder, then they are accepting the fact that they too shall deserve to die and should be put to death. I can care less if a person who is sentenced to death or is sentenced to life in prison with out hope of parole, or is senteced to a term that will more than lekely exceed their life span reforms themselves. My concern about reform are for those people serving the short sentences who may be back on the street.
As far as being conservative, I have been called both conservative and liberal. It all depends on the issue.
Not so, Ralph. There are quite a few states which do not have capital punishment as part of their criminal code. (Last time I looked, I think it was 27 states, but I could be off on that figure.) The intersting thing is that many of those states which do not execute prisoners have lower per capita murder rates than do states e.g. Texas, California and Florida. Statistically, at least, it seems fairly obvious that the death penalty is no way a deterrent to murder.
Yeah, but it does feel SO good for the blood-thirsty and vindictive.
Just for gigglers, anybody wanna dig up the details on "All the good Tookie did while he was in prison"? Seems he refused to cooperate with the system just about any way he could, down to and including assaulting guards and other prisoners, withholding information relevant to criminal activity both in the prison and outside, was active within the gang structure in the prison, and plotted more than one escape attempt. The children's books he purportedly "authored" have had somewhat less market success - and influence - than some would like others to think was the case, BTW a few hundred copies sold prior to his latest 15 minutes of notoriety (now, though, I'm sure sales will spike momentarilly - collectors' items, you know). This was one bad dude, with little or no indication of getting "better" beyond his own claim that he was doing so and its echoing by his supporters. Tookie's "rehabilitation" is a myth.
Sure, there's a lot to be said against the death penalty, but there sure isn't much to be said for letting someone like Tookie escape it once he'd earned it.
Of course it's great to be blood thirsty.
Now, statistically speaking the states that have the highest murder rates per capita (texas, California, Florida, Pennsylvania and New York) also have one other thing in common. They are the largest states population wise , they have the largest cities and they have the highest rates of people living under the poverty level.
Do not ever confuse the lack of a death penalty with a correlation on crime, when you are not figuring into the equation other factors such as income, race and other factors. To do so leads to a misrepresentation of the overall statistics.
Oh, don't forget that Washington D.C. does not have the death penalty but is the murder capital.
timberlandko wrote:The children's books he purportedly "authored" have had somewhat less market success - and influence - than some would like others to think was the case, BTW a few hundred copies sold prior to his latest 15 minutes of notoriety (now, though, I'm sure sales will spike momentarilly - collectors' items, you know). This was one bad dude, with little or no indication of getting "better" beyond his own claim that he was doing so and its echoing by his supporters. Tookie's "rehabilitation" is a myth.
I heard someone state today that what they should do is add an extra page to the back of all of his books which would hold the text:
Due to the crimes in which Tookie was convicted, he was put to death by lethal injection on 12/13/05.
That might have some effect on the kids that read his books.
timberlandko wrote:Just for gigglers, anybody wanna dig up the details on "All the good Tookie did while he was in prison"?
You might want to check this out:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051213/D8EFF7D80.html
Like I say, the long odds are that Tookie was guilty as hell but I wouldn't want to have to stake my life on it the way anybody would in the case of Manson or Rader. There was no rational reason for him to go on claiming innocence if he was guilty. If it SHOULD turn out that this guy was innocent, that will probably be the end of the death penalty in America.
"No fingerprints, blood or clothing at either crime scene connected Williams to the shootings. The main physical evidence against him was a shell casing at the motel, matched to Williams' shotgun by a sheriff's expert whose testing methods have been derided as "junk science'' by an expert hired by Williams' current lawyers. Last week, the state Supreme Court rejected a defense request for new tests of the gun."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/07/MNG60G468I1.DTL
Ahnold should have released him. Tookie would have died quicker.
blueflame1 wrote:"No fingerprints, blood or clothing at either crime scene connected Williams to the shootings. The main physical evidence against him was a shell casing at the motel, matched to Williams' shotgun by a sheriff's expert whose testing methods have been derided as "junk science'' by an expert hired by Williams' current lawyers. Last week, the state Supreme Court rejected a defense request for new tests of the gun."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/07/MNG60G468I1.DTL
Unless the guy really had lost touch with reality I can't think of a reason for him to have gone on claiming innocence if he was guilty. I know this comes as a huge shock to a lot of judges and prosecutors, but every once in a while, when somebody refuses to admit guilt for something, it's because they didn't do it.
While I'm opposed to the death penalty, while it is used, I strongly believe that it should only be used where there is a plethora of evidence of the person's guilt. It doesn't sound like this is the case in this instance. Though that probably doesn't matter to the more bloodthirsty members of the right.
I guess he's dead, now. Did anyone see if he made a final statement...or how things went at the prison?
Lash he didn't make a final statement. Some people say he may have been given clemency if he apologized and confessed. This is from the link I posted "Now that clemency is his last hope, Williams' "claim of innocence may be hurting him'' by making it impossible for him to express remorse for the four murders, said UC Berkeley Law Professor Franklin Zimring, an expert on clemency.
If that costs him his life, so be it, Williams says. He told The Chronicle in an interview Thursday, "It is absurd for a person to apologize for something he didn't do. I will not lower my integrity. It would be wrong.''
Thanks. I just got in from work, and hadn't read any headlines.
The Tookster in all his unrepentant glory.
