39
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 05:59 pm
This guy gives away national security information against the laws of this country, and he complains that the president and vice president are attempting to deny him asylum.

What does he expect? A million dollar reward and a two week vacation at a five star resort?

Quote:
Snowden blames Obama for trying to block his efforts to find asylum
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Type: Discussion • Score: 39 • Views: 291,491 • Replies: 13,550

 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 06:09 pm
All individuals who receives a Top Secret clearance must sign a "Nondisclosure Agreement."

Quote:
Top Secret Clearances

A Top Secret clearance may be granted to those persons who have a "need-to-know" national security information, classified up to the Top Secret level, and who need unescorted access to FBI facilities, when necessary. This type of clearance will most often be appropriate for law enforcement officers assigned to FBI Task Forces housed in FBI facilities.

In addition to all the requirements at the Secret level, a background investigation, covering a 10-year time period, is required.

Once favorably adjudicated for a Top Secret security clearance, the candidate will be required to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement.


If he signed the Non-Disclosure Agreement, he had no right to disclose state secrets. It's a legal contract enforceable by the laws of this country.
engineer
 
  10  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 06:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But he is also a whistleblower who revealed unethical actions by his employer at very great person risk to himself. So far, he was revealed that:
- The NSA is intercepting large quantities of electronic traffic from US citizens without probable cause.
- The NSA is collecting phone call information about many US citizens without probable cause.
- Judicial oversight is a joke.
- The US is spying on our allies during trade negotiations.
- The US is monitoring the electronic traffic of a large number of foreign citizens who are not in any way suspected of a crime.

The guy is a hero. Funny how we look at the guy who released the Pentagon Papers as a hero but this guy is a stupid lawbreaker.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 06:59 pm
@engineer,
That's no excuse to reveal national security information. What's his sacrifice?
The NSA's interception of electronic traffic of US citizens doesn't affect our "freedoms" if they don't act on anything they learn from them. I've not seen any evidence that they have. Scare tactics only produces fear of the unknown.
Facebook and other commercial enterprises in the US probably has more personal information on citizens, but they use it "presumably" to advance their business - and not to use it in any negative manner.

When you talk about "probable cause," I have to ask, what harm have any citizen suffered from their collection of electronic data? I know of none.

As for a large number of foreign citizens being monitored, why are you so concerned about non-citizens who may be a terrorist? All countries perform intelligence on other countries; that's a fact you can take to the bank.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Here are the top 10 spy agencies. Guess what they're doing?
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/202_top_10_list.html
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  9  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's no excuse to reveal national security information.

It is the only excuse.
cicerone imposter wrote:
What's his sacrifice?

His home, his six figure salary, the ability to see his girlfriend, family, etc. The guy is living in an airport and I can see no personal gain that could in any way make up for his loss. He is being hunted by a globe spanning superpower that is already spreading false information about how he has damaged national security through a all too willing press. Is that enough sacrifice for you?
cicerone imposter wrote:
The NSA's interception of electronic traffic of US citizens doesn't affect our "freedoms" if they don't act on anything they learn from them.

I disagree. The US Constitution forbids the government from unreasonable search. Any information they have collected about me without probable cause violates that. If you want the government to have your data, you are free to provide it to them. I expect my Internet usage to be private. Add to that the complete veil of secrecy and you will never have any idea if the government is acting on the information or not.
cicerone imposter wrote:
Facebook and other commercial enterprises in the US probably has more personal information on citizens, but they use it "presumably" to advance their business - and not to use it in any negative manner.

And it is freely given.
cicerone imposter wrote:
When you talk about "probable cause," I have to ask, what harm have any citizen suffered from their collection of electronic data? I know of none.

But that doesn't mean there hasn't been any.
cicerone imposter wrote:
As for a large number of foreign citizens being monitored, why are you so concerned about non-citizens who may be a terrorist?

Why aren't you concerned about the much, much larger numbers of non-citizens who are not?

Question: If an NSA agent knocked on your door and said "Hello sir. I would like all your Internet traffic and information on all of your calls to promote national security. Please turn it over." Would you be ok with that? I am not and that is what Snowden has showed us is happening.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:18 pm
@engineer,
I doubt many will have 11 minutes, but here is a story on Daniel Ellsberg, called the "most dangerous man in America." Interesting that Ellsberg thinks that Snowden is a hero.

OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:19 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
But he is also a whistleblower who revealed unethical actions by his employer at very great person risk to himself. So far, he was revealed that:
- The NSA is intercepting large quantities of electronic traffic from US citizens without probable cause.
- The NSA is collecting phone call information about many US citizens without probable cause.
- Judicial oversight is a joke.
- The US is spying on our allies during trade negotiations.
- The US is monitoring the electronic traffic of a large number of foreign citizens who are not in any way suspected of a crime.

The guy is a hero. Funny how we look at the guy who released the Pentagon Papers as a hero but this guy is a stupid lawbreaker.
AGREED.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:22 pm

That 's humorous:
C. I. posts: "Snowdon [sic] is a dummy"
and he spells the guy 's name incorrectly. WHO is the dummy ????
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:27 pm
@engineer,
I'll tell you that there's a huge difference between what Ellsberg revealed about the Vietnam War that has no comparison to Snowdon's revelations.

The Vietnam War was started on false accusations in the Gulf of Tonkin which gave Johnson the authority to start that war.

What Ellsberg revealed is described by this Wiki article.
Quote:
Gulf of Tonkin incident
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Gulf of Tonkin Incident)
Gulf of Tonkin incident

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (or the USS Maddox incident) is the name given to two separate confrontations involving North Vietnam and the United States in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. On August 2, 1964, the destroyer USS Maddox, while performing a signals intelligence patrol as part of DESOTO operations, engaged three North Vietnamese Navy torpedo boats of the 135th Torpedo Squadron.[1] A sea battle resulted, in which the Maddox expended over two hundred and eighty 3-inch and 5-inch shells, and in which four USN F-8 Crusader jet fighter bombers strafed the torpedo boats. One US aircraft was damaged, one 14.5 mm round hit the destroyer, three North Vietnamese torpedo boats were damaged, and four North Vietnamese sailors were killed and six were wounded; there were no U.S. casualties.[5]
The second Tonkin Gulf incident was originally claimed by the U.S. National Security Agency to have occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead may have involved "Tonkin Ghosts"[6] (false radar images) and not actual NVN torpedo boat attacks.
The outcome of these two incidents was the passage by Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying U.S. conventional forces and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam.
In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded[7] that the Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese Navy on August 2, but that there were no North Vietnamese Naval vessels present during the incident of August 4. The report stated regarding August 2:
At 1505G, Captain Herrick ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G, the Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first.[7]
Regarding August 4:
It is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night. [...] In truth, Hanoi's navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.[8]


It was somewhat analogous to how Bush started the war in Iraq. All lies.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
That you can only talk about spelling proves who the dummy is; you!
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 07:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
That you can only talk about spelling proves who the dummy is; you!
That is not what happened;
u have mis-characterized your own thread (not paying attention to it??)
I also joined in the expressed opinion of the Engineer.





David
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  7  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 08:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Ellsberg is of the opinion that Snowden's relaxations are more significant than his. I guess history will tell, but certainly at the time of Ellsberg "leak", he was attacked and smeared by the Nixon administration including breaking into his doctor's office looking for incriminating information, tapping his phone and trying him for espionage. That should all sound familiar right now. If the government was willing to break into a doctor's office to steal files to smear a political opponent, why would I trust them now? Have humans changed so that we know that abuse of power is a thing of the past?
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 08:13 pm
@engineer,
revelations eh
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jul, 2013 08:19 pm
@engineer,
Ellsberg can have any personal opinion like everybody else.
I wish somebody had "leaked" the lies of the Bush administration in their push for war. It would have saved many tens of thousands of innocent lives and billions of wasted tax dollars.

Unfortunately for Americans, we lost many lives and killed many in Vietnam in addition to our use of Agent Orange that produced deformities in generations of babies born after that war.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:44 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

revelations eh

I completely didn't get your post until I just went back and re-read mine. "Relaxations"! I guess I really don't want to know about Snowden's "relaxations".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 06:34 am
Whatever Snowden is - he created some big trouble for US's relation to their "targeted" enemies allies in Europe.
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 06:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
When I first read in the papers that Edward Snowden was a whistleblower, I didn't notice the spelling and just assumed that the Queen's youngest son was officiating at a Polo match.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 12:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
This guy gives away national security information against the laws of this country, and he complains that the president and vice president are attempting to deny him asylum.

What does he expect? A million dollar reward and a two week vacation at a five star resort?


Something is amiss with Snowden. He is a citizen of the US and this is how he thanks our government, trying to discredit America before the world, tarnishing our image, giving those who wish to harm us the information on how the US is laying traps to capture them. Tis true, all governments spy on other governments....this is what the CIA is for, the Mossad, etc. Snowden may have compromised U.S. agents operating overseas; one doesn't know what this black sheep individual is capable of. I was simply delighted hearing that France and Portugal actually prevented the President of Bolivia's plane from entering its airspace because they thought Snowden was on board. It shows the noose is tightening around the rogue whistle blower's neck. Edward Snowden has been charged with a serious crime; by betraying his country, he is a traitor by releasing classified information and then had the gall to try and seek asylum abroad as opposed to sticking around the way Daniel Ellsberg of the Pentagon Papers did. Even Putin said Snowden could stay in Russia if he would stop harming "our American partners."
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 12:59 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

He is a citizen of the US and this is how he thanks our government

We don't need to "thank our government". Our government works for us or is supposed to.
Moment-in-Time wrote:

... trying to discredit America before the world, tarnishing our image, giving those who wish to harm us the information on how the US is laying traps to capture them. Tis true, all governments spy on other governments....this is what the CIA is for, the Mossad, etc. Snowden may have compromised U.S. agents operating overseas; one doesn't know what this black sheep individual is capable of.

You aren't paying attention to what is actually happening. Snowden didn't have any issues with the government monitoring "those who wish to harm us". He disclosed that the government was also spying on Americans in mass, monitoring emails and internet traffic and collecting information about phone calls. The NSA is supposed to submit to Congressional oversight on this, but the director of the NSA directly lied to Congress about the scope of NSA monitoring of citizens. Without Snowden's revelations, Congress would never have known the the NSA was lying. Concerning the CIA, the CIA is banned from spying inside the US. Regarding US agents overseas, Snowden has said that he carefully screened the data to ensure he did not do that and if he had, you can be sure the government would be letting the world know about it like they did with Manning.
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Edward Snowden has been charged with a serious crime; by betraying his country, he is a traitor by releasing classified information

That is exactly what Ellsberg was accused of. Today his revelations are considered one of the most important whistleblower actions in US history.
Moment-in-Time wrote:

... and then had the gall to try and seek asylum abroad as opposed to sticking around the way Daniel Ellsberg of the Pentagon Papers did.

Ellsberg tried to stay anonymous. He did not reveal himself until the government noose was tightening around his traitorous neck. Then the government did everything possible to blacken his name including wire tapping and breaking and entering. Snowden knew what the US government would do to him. Leaving makes a lot of sense if you study the history of treatment of government whistleblowers and this administration in particular.
 

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