World stunned as US struggles with Katrina

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
BBB Wrote:

Quote:
Mamma Angel, I never continue to debate with someone who cannot or will not open their mind to another's pointe of view.

If you don't understand the points I'm trying to politely make, you probably never will.

So lets agree to move on to bugging someone else.

BBB

Right. You accuse me of being something I am not. I explain what I am. You refuse to acknowledge any of it. I don't do what I do for the glory. There is no glory. I do it because it is the right thing to do. I ask you to explain you and what do I get? Let's move on? Fine, I get that a lot. And USUALLY (not in all cases, but most) it is from those that are doing nothing but complaining about the situation and not trying to find solutions to the problems.[/[/u]quote]

I wouldn't go there, if I were you. As I said, I'm moving on to avoid getting this thread locked.

Bye

BBB

BBB,

I am not afraid to go anywhere when I believe in something. I said USUALLY and not in all cases, didn't I? In my experience, that is the case.

Why can't you understand that complaining and pointing out the bad side only breeds discomfort and discontent?

I have admitted mistakes were made, many mistakes. We need to learn from them. Right now, we just need to focus on getting everyone out of New Orleans and helping them rebuild their lives.

You tell me what in the world is wrong with that attitude?

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Views from around the world

Quote:

..."Third World America," declared the headline in the Daily Mail in London on Saturday. "Law and order is gone, gunmen roam at will, raping and looting, and as people die of heat and thirst, bodies lie rotting in the street. Until now, such a hellish vista could only be imagined in a Third World disaster zone. But this was America yesterday."

International reaction has shifted in many cases from shock, sympathy and generosity to a growing criticism of the Bush administration's response to the catastrophe of Hurricane Katrina. In nations often divided by dueling sentiments of admiration and distaste for the United States, many people see at best incompetence and at worst racism in the chaos gripping much of the Gulf Coast. Many analysts said President Bush's focus on Iraq had left the United States without resources to handle natural disasters, and many said Hurricane Katrina's fury mocked Bush's opposition to international efforts to confront global warming, which some experts say contributes to the severity of such storms....

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Anyone spending about 50% of their posting time, or words, in negative comments about the individuals inside a disaster is going to have their motivations questions.

Red flags on the field, everywhere.

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BBB,

Your post speaks volumes. See ya!

Sumac,

Have I said one thing bad about anyone that is not shooting, looting, or raping? I think not. But, if you seem to think it's ok to exhibit these behaviors during a disaster then I hope you are never in the middle of one like the law abiding citizens that are in New Orleans.

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;-)

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For whoever asked about the mayor being the one to move the hotel guests in front of the Dome evacuees:

Quote:

The 700 had been trapped in the hotel, near the Superdome, but conditions were considerably cleaner, even without running water, than the unsanitary crush inside the dome. The Hyatt was severely damaged by the storm. Every pane of glass on the riverside wall was blown out.

Mayor Ray Nagin has used the hotel as a base since it sits across the street from city hall, and there were reports the hotel was cleared with priority to make room for police, firefighters and other officials.

Guardian Unlimited - About halfway down

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Aw com'on guys. Momma Angel and I have had many differences, but I truly understand what she is attempting to communicate.

Yeah, the government screwed up, royally. They sat around with their dicks in their hands, while peoples' lives were being devastated. Now, we are beginning to see some action, a "day late and a dollar short."

The fact remains that there WAS a horrific breakdown in civilized behavior. I read where women were afraid to go to the bathroom, because marauding gangs were raping and slitting the throats of innocent women.

I also read stories of small enclaves of neighbors who banded together to help each other. Now THOSE are the stories that help shore up the hope of people. THAT is what America is supposed to be about. People helping people, neighbor assisting neighbor.

The funny thing is, that Momma Angel has been branded an "elitist", because she is concerned about property. I certainly would be concerned if I had a store that was left relatively unscathed, only to be torched by people with a complete lack of civilized control.

Momma Angel puts her heart and soul in what she is doing for people. Instead of bitching and griping, she is DOING SOMETHING. Have any of you ever bothered to look at her website? It might be an eye opener for you.

Edit: Moderator: Link removed

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Phoenix,

Bless you, my friend. Yes, we have had our differences but I have always found you to be very fair in trying to understand the sides of others. You have said in your one post what I have been trying to say in my many. Thank you for that.

Momma Angel

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

I also read stories of small enclaves of neighbors who banded together to help each other. Now THOSE are the stories that help shore up the hope of people. THAT is what America is supposed to be about. People helping people, neighbor assisting neighbor.

I think the real eye opener here is that view of America is a fantasy, a dream, a lot of wishful thinking on the part of the elite. If nothing else, maybe from this we can learn the dream has missed a large segment of our population.

(I'm not calling MA or anyone else here elitist. Just pointing out that all of us are rather cushioned from reality.)

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I feel the same way now as I did several pages ago
.. yet feel some strange urge to repeat myself -

shewolfnm wrote:

Let me throw my hat in a "political debate" just once...

I am in no way a Bush supporter.
But I do not agree with all of the **** being flung at him saying this is all his fault. What the hell? He didnt create a hurricane.
What he hasnt done can be stacked on top of many things. Everyone can debate that.
YES. people are dying. YES this could have been handled MUCH diffrent.
YES there is a problem when the president isnt addressing issues such as this when he is on 'vacation' .. ( great timing that was, jack-hole)
I can, and so can others, go on and on and on about " Bush didnt do this, and Bush isnt doing that..

Take the focus away from Bush for one second because even if he was the ' man of war and strength' he wants to be .. >sigh<
What would make people happy? Seeing him on a little boat floating around the city personally saving lives ? Then people would bash him calling him a 'glory monger'. But he isnt. even if he WOULD, he could only save a few people. Would this right the situation? No
he has deployed help.. though spread paper thin.
Now those people who are helping are being shot at, attacked and have to be safe themselves. They can not rush into millions of gallons of water and be effective. They have to stay ALIVE... and unfortunatly that means they have to be safe, SLOW , and effective.
We would all like to think that the national guard can just fly over and resuce everyone and all will be well in 24 hours.
Not happening.
These people are terrified and are in a state of riot.
If the national guard, red cross... and who ever else is there ,started randomly dropping food people would kill each other for it. They would hoard and fight . Then who gets it? Only the strong? And guess what would happen then? The same thing that is happening now .. Bush would be blamed.
" Well YEAH people are gonna hoard... Bush should have had it dropped sooner....."
True.. but he nor anyone else can control human fear and the fight to survive.
On top of that.. everyone seems to forget there are MILLIONS of gallons of water IN THE WAY. Trucks can only get so far.
helicopters can not see roof tops because of fallen trees and debris.
What would have been a safe place to land BEFORE is now unknown because the conditions of these buildings is questionable.
What are they supposed to do?? This is millions of acres covered with twice as much water. Most of us can not wrap our brains around the size of this disaster. [/u]

The disaster isnt his fault.
His actions are a day late and a dollar short.
But even with all the dollars he can/should / could designate to this disaster it does little. Water IS IN THE WAY of even the most expencive rescue efforts. Human fear IS IN THE WAY of even the biggest rescue crowd. This disaster is enormous. Almost uncomprehendable even to those still stuck on their roof tops.

Alot of the simple solutions at this point fall into the hands of americans.
As momma angel said.. there are thousands of people doing very selfless deeds right now. But they dont make the news.

Simple solutions would be greyhound - donating busses
Cruise ships - ferrying people out
Normal every day people- giving spare rooms, clothes , food, everything they can
Grocery stores- swallowing the cost and giving food and bottled water
Large corporations - matching donations from employees
Other businesses- ALLOW EMPLOYEES the time off of work to go HELP
Real estates- donating houses, apts , condos for homeless victims
Construction companies- donating MAN POWER and supplies to build make shift temporary shelters
Home building supply shops- dontaing supplies..

the list can go on and on.
Instead of placing the blame of thousands of people on the shoulders of one inadequate person, we as a nation need to swallow the cost and do something. Stop waiting for a green light to give our time and effort and stop playing the blame game.
Get off your ass and do something. Bush wont.

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Squinney Wrote:

Quote:

I think the real eye opener here is that view of America is a fantasy, a dream, a lot of wishful thinking on the part of the elite. If nothing else, maybe from this we can learn the dream has missed a large segment of our population.

(I'm not calling MA or anyone else here elitist. Just pointing out that all of us are rather cushioned from reality.)

I think the eye opener is that there aren't enough people who believe that even one person can make a positive change. It only takes ONE to turn a bad situation around. Why are so many so unwilling to do this?

The nation came together united for the same thing during 9/11. There is no difference here. A disaster is a disaster. People in need are people in need.

As long as there are those that do not believe changes can be made, changes will be hampered.

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After a couple of hours away from A2K, I have had a chance to catch up and to read Momma Angel's link to her nonprofit. You are to be commended for your work. Even small nonprofits can make a huge difference in the lives of people who have endured failure and hardship. As a long-time volunteer for the developmentally disabled, I respect what you are doing and your dedication. I have known many volunteers whith whom I had pretty serious disagreements, but I continued to respect their work as long as it was not self-serving and yours certainly appears to be selfless and sincere.

I may not agree with your religious beliefs, but I always respect honest effort in helping people in need.

I agree that positive stories of individual actions should be told along with the tragedy that is constant in the wake of Katrina. What I strongly disagree with is making excuses for the hapless, incompetence of those on the political ladder starting in New Orleans and going all the way to the top, where, does anyone remember(?), the buck stopped when Harry Truman was in office.

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Diane wrote:

After a couple of hours away from A2K, I have had a chance to catch up and to read Momma Angel's link to her nonprofit. You are to be commended for your work. Even small nonprofits can make a huge difference in the lives of people who have endured failure and hardship. As a long-time volunteer for the developmentally disabled, I respect what you are doing and your dedication. I have known many volunteers whith whom I had pretty serious disagreements, but I continued to respect their work as long as it was not self-serving and yours certainly appears to be selfless and sincere.

I may not agree with your religious beliefs, but I always respect honest effort in helping people in need.

I agree that positive stories of individual actions should be told along with the tragedy that is constant in the wake of Katrina. What I strongly disagree with is making excuses for the hapless, incompetence of those on the political ladder starting in New Orleans and going all the way to the top, where, does anyone remember(?), the buck stopped when Harry Truman was in office.

Diane,

Thank you so much for visiting our site and understanding what we are about. Maybe you can explain it better to some of the others in this thread so they too will feel compelled to visit the site. Thank you for all you do for the developmentally disabled. You are truly a Care Angel yourself! And thank you very much for the kind words. Our Angels are very dedicated and selfless people.

Edit: Moderator: Link removed

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MommaAngel wrote:

As long as there are those that do not believe changes can be made, changes will be hampered.

I have seen something, in my community, that I never would have believed when I lived in New York. The level of volunteerism is amazing. There is a security patrol, where people ride around, and communicate with the sheriff, if anything is awry. If the driver sees an open garage door, he will ring the homeowner's bell, and remind him to close it. Our crime rate in the lowest in the county.

There is an Emergency Squad. If a person has a medical emergency, and it is not life threatening, they call the squad. The volunteers on the squad have taken training as paramedics. By using the squad, the government emergency services are freed up for life threatening emergencies. The emergency squad service, unlike the government emergency services, is absolutely free of charge.

The squad has a list of people on oxygen, or are otherwise impaired, in case of an emergency, like a hurricane.

There is a ham radio club in the community. They have developed a system whereby in case of hurricane, where there is no electricity or phone service, they can have another method of communication.

I could go on and on...................the Samaritans, who take the elderly to doctor's appointments, the clubs that share the task of delivering Meals on Wheels to the homebound, and so many little things that our neighbors do for one another.

I think that my community is a model of what people can accomplish when they set their minds to it. Obviously, we could never deal with something like Katrina ourselves. But that does not mean that we have to look for government for EVERYTHING.

The helping hands that we need are to be found at the end of our arms. That attitude was what made the United States great. Let us not forget.

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Diane wrote:

does anyone remember(?), the buck stopped when Harry Truman was in office.

Are we speaking of our last great president?

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Lash wrote:

They had the "warn them as soon as possible, because everyone knows a major city can't evacuate its' inhabitants within 24 hours" attitude.

More than half those people chose not to go.

So now we're down to blaming the victims again. But many of those who stayed even though they werent old or infirm stayed because, a) they were piss-poor without any savings to use and b) didnt know anyone outside NO. Where should they have gone, with no-one to stay at and no money?

NO has seen many, many stern warnings of hurricanes and possible floods that didnt materialise, or turned out to be outride-able. Can you really not understand how someone, having stuck out a number of those, didnt want to leave behind his only belongings to go sleep in a bus-station in a city where he knows noone? Seems like they had the choice between homelessness and homelessness, with a fair prospect of danger one way or another, and there were a bunch who chose to then at least face it at home. Now I would have left first thing, no doubt. But I can see where they were coming from.

And I do think that if any disaster-struck city still has hundreds of thousands of people there in acute need, for whatever reason, its the country's responsibility to act decisively, period. I dont think its unfair for people to be angry if it turns out hundreds of thousands of fellow-Americans in dire straights are getting aid agonizingly more slowly or needlessly less efficient than could have been.

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I also agree however that the disaster is so tremendous that of course there are going to be lots and lots of fukk-ups, and any which way there would have been agony, pain and shortage.

That mistakes were evenly spread among various levels of government.

And that everyone could do his bit, its not all up to the government either.

Should keep that in mind, and then still analyse what went wrong in the response - and what had gone wrong already before (eg water management). A critical, honest reflection. Dont think its gonna happen.

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nimh wrote:

Lash wrote:
They had the "warn them as soon as possible, because everyone knows a major city can't evacuate its' inhabitants within 24 hours" attitude.

More than half those people chose not to go.

So now we're down to blaming the victims again.

Quote:
No. You inject drama and emotion into this subject. I'm stating facts. Have you seriously considered the impossible situation that presented ? Old, ill people who can't go--and can't think to make someone aware of their plight....other people who refuse to go....others without means to evacuate--you have 24 hours before landfall. I personally think it's small to blame anyone. It was a hurricane. They kill people. No city is capable of transporting it's citizens to another city within 24 hours.

But many of those who stayed even though they werent old or infirm stayed because, a) they were piss-poor without any savings to use and b) didnt know anyone outside NO. Where should they have gone, with no-one to stay at and no money?

Quote:
These people had 10 shelters set up for them. What were they supposed to do for them with 24 hours notice?

NO has seen many, many stern warnings of hurricanes and possible floods that didnt materialise, or turned out to be outride-able. Can you really not understand how someone, having stuck out a number of those, didnt want to leave behind his only belongings to go sleep in a bus-station in a city where he knows noone?

Quote:
If you don't blame them for neglecting their own safety, explain how you can blame a city
.

Seems like they had the choice between homelessness and homelessness, with a fair prospect of danger one way or another, and there were a bunch who chose to then at least face it at home. Now I would have left first thing, no doubt. But I can see where they were coming from.

Quote:
Why can't you see where the city and the government were coming from?

And I do think that if any disaster-struck city still has hundreds of thousands of people there in acute need, for whatever reason, its the country's responsibility to act decisively, period.

Quote:
Unresponsible statement. You can't repair a levee with millions of gallons of water flowing over it. You can feed people who are shooting at you. You can protect the safety of people who won't heed your warnings.

I dont think its unfair for people to be angry if it turns out hundreds of thousands of fellow-Americans in dire straights are getting aid agonizingly more slowly or needlessly less efficient than could have been

Quote:
If you could prove "needlessly", I'd agree. Otherwise, it IS very unfair and irresponsible
.

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I'm not quite sure of who posted what up there but let me address a few things.

It is not blaming anyone stating the true fact that more than half of those people chose not to go. There are still those refusing to go! The danged link wouldn't work. So, here's the whole article.

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - In the absence of information and outside assistance, groups of rich and poor banded together in the French Quarter, forming "tribes" and dividing up the labor.

As some went down to the river to do the wash, others remained behind to protect property. In a bar, a bartender put near-perfect stitches into the torn ear of a robbery victim.

While mold and contagion grew in the muck that engulfed most of the city, something else sprouted in this most decadent of American neighborhoods - humanity.

"Some people became animals," Vasilioas Tryphonas said Sunday morning as he sipped a hot beer in Johnny White's Sports Bar on Bourbon Street. "We became more civilized."

While hundreds of thousands fled the below-sea-level city before the storm, many refused to leave the Vieux Carre, or old quarter. Built on some of the highest ground around and equipped with underground power lines, residents considered it about the safest place to be.

Katrina blew off roof slates and knocked down some already-unstable buildings but otherwise left the 18th and 19th century homes with their trademark iron balconies intact. Even without water and power, most preferred it to the squalor and death in the emergency shelters set up at the Superdome and Convention Center.

But what had at first been a refuge soon became an ornate prison.

Police came through commandeering drivable vehicles and siphoning gas. Officials took over a hotel and ejected the guests.

An officer pumped his shotgun at a group trying to return to their hotel on Chartres Street.

"This is our block," he said, pointing the gun down a side street. "Go that way."

Jack Jones, a retired oil rig worker, bought a huge generator and stocked up on gasoline. But after hearing automatic gunfire on the next block one night, he became too afraid to use it - for fear of drawing attention.

Still, he continues to boil his clothes in vinegar and dip water out of neighbors' pools for toilet flushing and bathing.

"They may have to shoot me to get me out of here," he said. "I'm much better off here than anyplace they might take me."

Many in outlying areas consider the Quarter a playground for the rich and complain that the place gets special attention.

Yes, wealthy people feasted on steak and quaffed warm champagne in the days after the storm. But many who stayed behind were the working poor - residents of the cramped spaces above the restaurants and shops.

Tired of waiting for trucks to come with food and water, residents turned to each other.

Johnny White's is famous for never closing, even during a hurricane. The doors don't even have locks.

Since the storm, it has become more than a bar. Along with the warm beer and shots, the bartenders passed out scrounged military Meals Ready to Eat and bottled water to the people who drive the mule carts, bus the tables and hawk the T-shirts that keep the Quarter's economy humming.

"It's our community center," said Marcie Ramsey, 33, whom Katrina promoted from graveyard shift bartender to acting manager.

For some, the bar has also become a hospital.

Tryphonas, who restores buildings in the Quarter, left the neighborhood briefly Saturday. Someone hit him in the head with a 2-by-4 and stole his last $5.

When Tryphonas showed up at Johnny White's with his left ear split in two, Joseph Bellomy - a customer pressed into service as a bartender - put a wooden spoon between Tryphonas' teeth and used a needle and thread to sew it up. Military medics who later looked at Bellomy's handiwork decided to simply bandage the ear.

"That's my savior," Tryphonas said, raising his beer in salute to the former Air Force medical assistant.

A few blocks away, a dozen people in three houses got together and divided the labor. One group went to the Mississippi River to haul water, one cooked, one washed the dishes.

"We're the tribe of 12," 76-year-old Carolyn Krack said as she sat on the sidewalk with a cup of coffee, a packet of cigarettes and a box of pralines.

The tribe, whose members included a doctor, a merchant and a store clerk, improvised survival tactics. Krack, for example, brushed her dentures with antibacterial dish soap.

It had been a tribe of 13, but a member died Wednesday of a drug overdose. After some negotiating, the police carried the body out on the trunk of a car.

The neighbors knew the man only as Jersey.

Tribe member Dave Rabalais, a clothing store owner, said he thinks the authorities could restore utilities to the Quarter. But he knows that would only bring "resentment and the riffraff."

"The French Quarter is the blood line of New Orleans," he said. "They can't let anything happen to this."

On Sunday, the tribe of 12 became a tribe of eight.

Four white tour buses rolled into the Quarter under Humvee escort. National Guardsmen told residents they had one hour to gather their belongings and get a ride out. Four of the tribe members decided to leave.

"Hallelujah!" Teresa Lawson shouted as she dragged her suitcase down the road. "Thank you, Jesus!"

For Mark Rowland, the leaving was bittersweet.

"I'm heart-broken to leave the city that I love," Rowland said as he sat in the air-conditioned splendor of the bus. "It didn't have to be this way."

At least the people that are deciding to stay are doing what they can to help each other.

Most of those in New Orleans do have relatives in northern Louisiana. A lot of those relatives are still trying to get to their families. It may be true that some could not afford to leave, but the fact is, more than half chose to stay no matter what. It was their choice. It's not right to blame others for those that made their own choice. The point is, they are there, they need our help.

I'd much rather be sleeping in a bus station where I knew no one than I would be stuck in the middle of NO dying.

I'd rather be safe somewhere and alive than I would be homeless in the middle of a dying city waiting for help to get to me.

And, yes, it is the country's responsibility to act decisively, but mistakes are made, mistakes were made. Now is the time to stop blaming anyone and just DO SOMETHING TO HELP THESE PEOPLE. Getting angry is one thing. Staying angry and using the energy that could be spent helping is another.

nimh,

Well said! But, I pray it is going to happen. WE can make it happen.

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Armed gangs open fire on levee contractors.

Police kill at least 5 in New Orleans
Gunmen open fire on contractors; no workers reported killed
Life continues in the hurricane ravaged south as more are rescued, but many others found dead.

Updated: 7:47 p.m. ET Sept. 4, 2005
NEW ORLEANS - Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.

Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said police shot at eight people carrying guns, killing five or six.

Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers.

<excerpt>

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World stunned as US struggles with Katrina

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