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Thu 2 Dec, 2021 06:58 am
I’ve always been pretty clear in my mind where I stand about abortion. It’s always been sort of black and white for me. It’s a woman’s decision to make – not the government, or anyone else. When it comes down to it, the right thing in my mind is that the decision to end a pregnancy has to be between a woman and her physician (and her god, if she has those beliefs).
So in any discussion or argument about “pro-choice” and “pro-life”, I have to count myself on the side of the pro-choice people.
There’s one thing though, that does nag at me, every time I think or talk about the subject.
It’s something that pro-choice people seem never to directly acknowledge. They won’t even acknowledge it’s a fetus, a lot of the time, referring to it as if it remains just an unformed lump of cells until it emerges and gets slapped on the ass.
The fact that ending a pregnancy sometimes means ending a viable human life is something that is supposed to at least cause someone a moment of pause.
Whenever the two sides get all fired up and are spouting their best arguments – the ones they feel are legally unassailable, or emotionally irresistible – that’s something that gets sort of glossed over and obfuscated by a lot of technical medical or legal terminology about the moment of conception, or what makes something a fetus, and what makes it a human being.
There is no denying of the fact that some abortions end the life of a creature whose only characteristic that keeps it from being considered a baby is simply the fact of which side of the birth portal it is on.
The pro-life side sometimes tries to demagogue this by hollering about infanticide and such, and that’s just wrong.
But I would really like to hear in conversation a pro-choice person acknowledge that this choice sometimes involves killing a real live human being.
The only time a late abortion should be performed, in my mind, is a life or death situation, essentially. Aside from that I keep my nose out of a woman's personal business.
@snood,
When a young man turns 18, he is required to sign up for Selective Service. The aim is to go kill other human beings. Right or wrong, men get told they HAVE to go kill other humans.
Let's talk about why it's ok for a man to kill but not a woman.
@edgarblythe,
i agree.
Do you think this thread is me "sticking my nose in a woman's business"?
@neptuneblue,
I hear you.
But surely no one could read my post as saying it's okay for ANYONE to kill.
@neptuneblue,
That sounds like conscription.
Nobody is forced to join the military and today women in the military are as free to kill people as men.
@snood,
There are many examples where humans do kill and it IS socially acceptable to do so.
When a loved one is too ill and on Life Support, a doctor will ask to "pull the plug." That family member has to decide to kill.
In this context, it is ok to kill another human being, correct?
@snood,
I think most pro-choice people acknowledge the existence of the fetus to themselves but simply don't refer to it in "casual" discussion. RvsW specifically referred to "fetal viability". A human fetus is a
potential human being which becomes a human being when it is delivered into the world, the umbilical cord is cut, and it takes its first breath. While I accept that people refer to the fetus as a "baby" I think that is a projection, a hope and a belief that the fetus will
become a baby. If dolls in the form of a fetus were marketed to kids I kind of doubt that children would develop the same sort of emotional connection to them that they did to little
"Betsy-Wetsy".
@hightor,
I'll prefer to stick to Snood's original premise:
Quote:But I would really like to hear in conversation a pro-choice person acknowledge that this choice sometimes involves killing a real live human being.
In the United States, twenty seven states (27) employ a corporal punishment element for the most egregious crimes.
In these instances, it IS socially acceptable to kill another human being.
@neptuneblue,
Capital punishment is barbaric, and completely unacceptable.
@izzythepush,
Well, it's not going away any time soon. In fact, one State is actually ratcheting up their efforts to kill women who have had an abortion. A law banning the medical practice will also criminalize it, with punishments up to and including the Death Penalty.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/11/death-sentence-abortion-hypocrisy-pro-life
"The Texas state legislature is debating a provision that wouldn’t just outlaw abortion, but legally qualify it as homicide. For context of how extreme that is, even in the United States before Roe v Wade made abortion broadly legal, the procedure was outlawed in most states but was not considered murder – abortion was its own crime. Texas in 2019 wants to be even more barbaric than that, and turn women who end their pregnancies into felons, killers, and even death row inmates.
...The Texas legislators who want to jail or execute women who end pregnancies would say they are just being consistent: abortion is murder, and so women who have abortions should be treated like murderers...."
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I think most pro-choice people acknowledge the existence of the fetus to themselves but simply don't refer to it in "casual" discussion.
That’s your opinion about what they think. My point is that I’ve never had anyone look me in the eyes and admit they are killing a viable human being.
hightor wrote:
RvsW specifically referred to "fetal viability". A human fetus is a potential human being which becomes a human being when it is delivered into the world, the umbilical cord is cut, and it takes its first breath. While I accept that people refer to the fetus as a "baby" I think that is a projection, a hope and a belief that the fetus will become a baby.
I’m not talking about theories about when a fetus is a human being. And I’m not talking about what anyone “hopes” is there.
I want you to tell me that you don’t think a viable human being (fetus, or whatever you wish) is the same whether they are on one side of the birth portal or the other. If you see a
substantive difference, I want you to tell me what that is.
hightor wrote: If dolls in the form of a fetus were marketed to kids I kind of doubt that children would develop the same sort of emotional connection to them that they did to little
"Betsy-Wetsy".
I really don’t get the relevance of speculating how little fetuses still attached to an umbilical cord would sell if they were recreated in doll form.
@snood,
snood wrote:My point is that I’ve never had anyone look me in the eyes and admit they are killing a viable human being.
Why do you feel it's your right to know such an intimate fact about a woman?
I'm sure a few women will join in and give us a take on it. So far only males are responding.
It's it's interesting to note that the science of the church (catholic), prior to Galileo and Copernicus and probably sometime after that, was astrology based on geocentrism, that the Earth was the center of the universe.
In accordance with Ptolemy, the Earth was surrounded by 7 transparent spheres containing the orbs, the Moon, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. The soul of the unborn resided somewhere past the seventh sphere. At the precise time of birth, the soul of the child would plunge through the spheres picking up influences as it passed close to the orbs, and and these influences would form the personality the child depending on the position of the orbs in that particular time of the year.
The church, therefore, defined the beginning of human life with its soul precisely at the time of birth.
@neptuneblue,
We don't have it, and people have been prosecuted for providing lethal chemicals to American states.
@snood,
snood wrote:
But I would really like to hear in conversation a pro-choice person acknowledge that this choice sometimes involves killing a real live human being.
Some women are bothered for years after having an abortion. A friend of mine over 40 years ago made that very tough decision and I know she didn't make it lightly. I think some women do feel very strongly that it's a human being and the guilt often haunts them.
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
snood wrote:
But I would really like to hear in conversation a pro-choice person acknowledge that this choice sometimes involves killing a real live human being.
Some women are bothered for years after having an abortion. A friend of mine over 40 years ago made that very tough decision and I know she didn't make it lightly. I think some women do feel very strongly that it's a human being and the guilt often haunts them.
Thank you, Mame.
I don’t particularly think “I have the right to know” what a woman thinks, as Neptune put it.
It’s just that conversations about it seem to always be missing that one bit of honesty that you so gracefully provided.
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