What I Think About Abortion

@neptuneblue,

I think that is the question. As Snood pointed out in his original post, medical decisions should be between the patient and the doctor. I may not like the decisions people make about their bodies but it's not by business.

I do think that states that wish to ban abortion (all states actually) should provide fully paid for medical care for pregnant women, from initial conception to post partum care but that is a different topic.

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@snood,

I thought it was a valid question.

You're right, we usually don't talk about that aspect of it. Not all women having abortions hang out at Walmart or use abortion as a form of birth control. This woman I'm talking about was in university and she was very young. She stayed at my home for 3 days prior to meeting the abortion board and she was a wreck. It didn't help that I had just had a baby and she had to be around her just prior. Sad situation.

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@snood,

Quote:

I’m not talking about theories about when a fetus is a human being.

As I said, I don't consider an unborn human fetus a "human being", as it remains dependent on its physiological connection to the mother. I think the degree of agency and personhood which define a human being are achieved outside of the womb. Some people don't and I expect that they would be opposed to abortion on that principle.

Quote:

And I’m not talking about what anyone “hopes” is there.

Well I am, because I want to draw a distinction between a fetus and a baby, as I consider the latter term an understandable misnomer.

Quote:

I really don’t get the relevance of speculating how little fetuses still attached to an umbilical cord would sell if they were recreated in doll form.

It highlights the difference between a fetus and a "baby".

Mame wrote:

Some women are bothered for years after having an abortion.

And some women aren't. It depends on the situation and on the mindset of the individual woman. The mandatory birth crowd has made it even more difficult for some women to make the choice and live with it. This was not always the case.

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@hightor,

I would amend to say that the unborn who could survive outside of the womb is a child even if still attached. Which is why I don't like late abortions. (Not that I like any of them.)

hightor wrote:

Quote:
I’m not talking about theories about when a fetus is a human being.

As I said, I don't consider an unborn human fetus a "human being", as it remains dependent on its physiological connection to the mother. I think the degree of agency and personhood which define a human being are achieved outside of the womb. Some people don't and I expect that they would be opposed to abortion on that principle.

Quote:
And I’m not talking about what anyone “hopes” is there.

Well I am, because I want to draw a distinction between a fetus and a baby, as I consider the latter term an understandable misnomer.

Quote:
I really don’t get the relevance of speculating how little fetuses still attached to an umbilical cord would sell if they were recreated in doll form.

It highlights the difference between a fetus and a "baby".

Mame wrote:

Some women are bothered for years after having an abortion.

And some women aren't. It depends on the situation and on the mindset of the individual woman. The mandatory birth crowd has made it even more difficult for some women to make the choice and live with it. This was not always the case.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

I would amend to say that the unborn who could survive outside of the womb is a child even if still attached.

I don't disagree...but I believe the cords are cut as a matter of course whether the birth is viable or stillborn.

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@hightor,

So you think it’s a child even if still attached.

You didn’t respond to the part where I asked you to tell me what you think are the substantive differences between a viable fetus on one side of the birth portal and the other.

You seem to want to hold on to a distinction that has no difference.

I don’t really care; whatever floats your boat. Except for the fact that it’s the illusion of that false difference that allows people to have endless discussions about abortion without ever considering that it sometimes means taking a human life. Discussions that, without acknowledging that, are disingenuous in a very basic way.

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@snood,

Quote:

So you think it’s a child even if still attached.

I don't think that is a realistic scenario. The umbilical cord is cut as a procedural part of delivery.

Quote:

You didn’t respond to the part where I asked you to tell me what you think are the substantive differences between a viable fetus on one side of the birth portal and the other.

Yes I did. "I think the degree of agency and personhood which define a human being are achieved outside of the womb."

Quote:

Discussions that, without acknowledging that, are disingenuous in a very basic way.

I acknowledge that some people believe it means killing a human being and others don't. I acknowledge that some people believe a fertilized embryo is a human being and others don't. Whether a discussion is disingenuous or not depends on how much the two sides have in common.

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@hightor,

You’re not speaking plainly. What “agency and personhood” does the fetus have five seconds after he’s born that he didn’t have five seconds before?

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I don't people who are pro choice necessarily refuse to see the viability of life, I think any consideration is drowned out by religious fanatics who view an unborn child's life as so much more important than those who have been born.

They see it as an attempt to force women to have children they don't want regardless of circumstance, rape incest or whatever.

This is a time when the American Supreme Court is about to ride roughshod over women's rights, it's not really a time for quiet contemplation.

I know women who have had a really bad time following an abortion, but I've also known those who seem to have taken it in their stride.

That isn't the issue, in Poland there has been a case of a woman dying because would not terminate her non viable foetus because of fear of prosecution.

That is the sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of pregnant women in America right now.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Capital punishment is barbaric, and completely unacceptable.

I agree with this as well ...the one difference though that many people are overlooking is capital punishment is killing a guilty person whereas a fetus is not guilty.

In my philosophy class we had discussed this principal...for instance in war the definition of those soldiers...military etc is considered a guilty person a!omg with those that may be considered guilty for a crime that constitutes capital punishment thus killing is acceptable as in the case of defending yourself. That would be the difference between a fetus being aborted which would be killing an innocent vs killing someone that is guilty.

Now personally I believe it is wrong to kill except in the situation for survival.

Now to throw another twist into this....what are your thoughts on aborting in the case a fetus has some sort of defect? One in which they will survive but is some sort of defect such as downs syndrome or some other defect where the child is not perfect in a sense and where do you draw the line ...say a girl vs a boy?

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@snood,

To add to this ... I also know a women who has had multiple abortions..it should not be a method of birth control.

Personally I don't think I could have ever had an abortion because my thoughts would have been exactly what you mention snood.

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@Linkat,

This is a digression, but..
that thing you said about the death penalty killing “the guilty”?
Well, one big problem with the implementation of a policy of capital punishment is that death is NOT dispensed fairly. People of color are sentenced to death out of proportion. People get executed and then are found to be innocent after the fact by DNA or confession.

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@snood,

snood wrote:

This is a digression, but..
that thing you said about the death penalty killing “the guilty”?
Well, one big problem with the implementation of a policy of capital punishment is that death is NOT dispensed fairly. People of color are sentenced to death out of proportion. People get executed and then are found to be innocent after the fact by DNA or confession.

Agreed another reason I don't support it

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@snood,

Once the child is exposed to the external world, breathing on its own, signifying its pleasure, hunger, or discomfort, being picked up and touched by other people, grasping a mammary gland, meeting the glance of others and staring back – do you really think this is an insignificant difference compared to the environment – physical and social – where it spent the last nine months? In any case, I see the question as more of a thought experiment than an actual real world concern.

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@Linkat,

I think the laws we have are about right. It is the woman's right to choose after all.

However, I would not allow selective late term abortions for anything like Downs'.

If you are against abortions font have one, but you have no right inflicting thosebeliefs on anyone else.

These are unborn foetuses after all, meanwhile born, living, thinking, breathing children are being shot up on a daily basis.

Four were killed in Michigan just a few days ago, where's the public outcry about that?

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@hightor,

You added a lot of things there. After it draws breath, after it interacts with people, etc. You’re really not being very honest here.
It’s a little insulting, but I understand.

It’s not a thought experiment. It’s the crux of the matter. You’re trying to say it’s a person when it comes out, but not before it comes out. I don’t think that makes any sense, except as a justification for not dealing with whether a human life is being taken.

For the last time ( he said, drawing back his hammer and positioning his nail on the eel’s neck), do abortions sometimes kill a person, or not?

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@izzythepush,

Well, there actually was a public outcry about those kids that were shot in school. And I agree with you that Downs Syndrome is an inappropriate reason to abort a fetus. Lots of Downs Syndrome children grow up to be absolutely charming and often productive individuals.

But there was that case in Britain a long time (60 years?) ago featured in a documentary. The parents didn't want children at all but she got pregnant. Her doctor prescribed thalidomide for morning sickness and her baby was born a total vegetable. They had to spend the rest of their lives caring for her which was a) not their fault and b) and when they didn't even want a normal kid much less what they got. That child was completely unaware of its surroundings. Now that would be a case for abortion.

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@izzythepush,

I pretty much agree with what you say however there is much outcry about the shooting in Michigan that you are incorrect about.

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@snood,

Quote:

You added a lot of things there.

Yes, being born and interacting with the external world adds a lot to one's quality of life.

Quote:

You’re really not being very honest here.

I'm endeavoring to answer as honestly as I can. You evidently don't agree with me but that doesn't mean I'm dishonest.

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It’s a little insulting, but I understand.

At least I never accused you of being dishonest.

Quote:

You’re trying to say it’s a person when it comes out, but not before it comes out.

As I had to explain to maxdancona, it's an arbitrary, but age old, distinction which recognizes the futility of trying to determine when a gestating human becomes a fully human being.

Quote:

For the last time ( he said, drawing back his hammer and positioning his nail on the eel’s neck), do abortions sometimes kill a person, or not?

Yes, if the mother dies during the procedure.

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@Linkat,

But nothing ever gets done.

We don't get much outrcries reported to be honest, more of the NRA marching in support.

I can't think the BBC site said anything other than the crime and the legal ramifications. The shooter will be tried as an adult and there's evidence it was premeditated.

That's about all, but if you say there has been much outcry I'll take your word.

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What I Think About Abortion

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