Thu 25 Apr, 2013 07:12 pm
But not if the woman simply wanted, for whatever reason, to have an abortion?
A little background to the (partial) conversation I had with someone about this...
I tuned into NPR in the middle of a segment, where a man was stating "Christians in this country (the U.S) have never committed an act of terrorism." A woman replied "What about the bombings of abortion clinics", to which the man replied "That's different" There was of course more after that, but his reply made me shake my head.
It made me this about the anecdotes collected by Joyce Arthur "The only moral abortion is my abortion" Easy enough to google.
I later mentioned this to a co-worker, and part of what she said was "I am so against abortion"
Well OK, an understandable statement, until she said the following "unless it's if a woman gets pregnant because she was raped."
I asked her why she thought that, and she replied "because she didn't have a choice"....well ok.
I asked if she thought the fetus had rights before it was born, and she said "No", then added something, can't remember how she said it, that implied if the woman wasn't raped, it wasn't so clear if the fetus had rights. I was starting to get the impression this really wasn't something she'd thought about well, and I wasn't planning on getting really deep into this controversial subject with someone I work with, so I let that go.
I did ask her though why it was OK if she was raped, but not if she just got pregnant. She replied "Because no one forced her to....spread her....legs. That's just the way she said it, and I realized she was someone who has a hard time opening saying the names of body parts, and had to use euphemisms, and said sotto voce at that.
The conversation was over essentially by then, we both moved on. However, thinking about it, it seems that her idea was that if a woman got pregnant by voluntarily having sex (never mind that any birth control can fail) she needs to, well, be punished by being forced to have the child, a child not wanted. But when the woman is forced to have sex, it's fine to say the fetus doesn't have rights.
If the fetus doesn't have rights, what difference do the circumstances make?
Does the fetus have no rights if it's the result of rape, but has rights if it's the result of voluntary sex?
I think if the conversation had come to that point (if we were both closer to each other, where we could discuss) this particular person would have shown she hadn't thought all that through, but it wouldn't have changed her mind.
I don't see where rape, or even incest would suddenly make having an abortion acceptable, compared to just getting one because the woman wanted one.
@chai2,
It kind of interesting that the viewpoint on the rights of a fetus. Now that you mention it, it seems impossible to have it both ways.
Invoking "rights" in a discussion can be a call to emotion. I can think of several kinds of "rights" - some exist because the law decrees that they do, and some are asserted to exist by a person or group who may wish to see them enshrined in legislation at some future time, and some are created, e.g. I give my children the right to choose how to spend their allowance. It seems to me that the "right" of a foetus (UK spelling) to live, in countries that allow abortion on demand, is essentially a matter of the pregnant woman's choice. (It also seems to me that this is right and proper). If she thinks the foetus has a "right" to live that overrides her wish to cease being pregnant, presumably she will either forego abortion or have it and feel guilty afterwards. If she is clear in her mind that an abortion is the appropriate action for her, then she will go ahead (and maybe still feel guilty afterwards). I don't think a baby forced on a woman as punishment for "spreading her legs" is necessarily going to have the best start in life from an emotional point of view.
@contrex,
There's always giving the baby up for adoption contrex.
A woman can do that if she was raped, or not.
A baby conceived of rape may not have the best start in life either.
My main confusion is why a woman should be forced to have a baby,but only if she wasn't forced to have sex. The fetus didn't have any say so in its conception regardless of rape, incest or consensual sex.
@chai2,
I wish whoever tagged this "religion" would remove it.
@chai2,
Quote: wish whoever tagged this "religion" would remove it.
I did not do the tagging but why do you not feel that this tied into some religious believes?
@BillRM,
I believe it could be, but I was trying to avoid bringing organized (or disorganized) religion into it.
Do you not feel one can discuss abortion without bringing religion, or belief in God, into it?
Just trying to avoid the usual bent these threads take, although I know that's futile.
In any event, what's your opinion on the subject at hand?
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:My main confusion is why a woman should be forced to have a baby,but only if she wasn't forced to have sex.
Women should never be forced to have babies, for any reason.
Quote:The fetus didn't have any say so in its conception regardless of rape, incest or consensual sex.
Not sure what your point is here. Foetuses don't have any "say" in anything.
@contrex,
chai2 wrote:
Quote:The fetus didn't have any say so in its conception regardless of rape, incest or consensual sex.
Not sure what your point is here. Foetuses don't have any "say" in anything.
Only because they don't have the capacity to say yet.
There's things I don't understand well enough at this moment to have a "say" in it, but I wouldn't want someone to rip me apart before I get to the point where I am able to have a say.
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
The fetus didn't have any say so in its conception regardless of rape, incest or consensual sex.
Neither does your spleen, your appendix, or your gall bladder have a say if you needed to have them removed surgically because of medical complications. Do you ask permission from your fingernails before you clip them? Have they ever given you explicit permission to trim them or even paint them?
@chai2,
Quote:Do you not feel one can discuss abortion without bringing religion
No with special note of the US where the anti-abortion groups are very tightly tied into the far right Christian community and cite the bible and their Christians believes for being against a woman right to choose.
Quote:In any event, what's your opinion on the subject at hand?
My opinion is that abortions are sad events by their very nature, done for whatever reason, but only the women who bodies are the hosts of the fetuses have any legal rights or moral rights to have a say in the matter.
Footnote I was sad and upset when I found out after the fact that a cat I took to the vet to be fixed was already pregnant at the time.
No. I don't buy your argument Chai. You are arguing that the issue is black or white with no middle ground. But, of course there is middle ground.
Lots of people have a moral issue against abortion. The idea that people would use abortion in place of other forms of birth control (i.e. the pill or condoms or abstinence) is deeply troubling to many Americans.
There is a difference between a callous ending of a pregnancy for family planning, and the need for an emergency abortion in a time of crisis.
You are making a classic strawman argument by making the obviously bogus claim that people can't find middle ground on a deeply emotional issue.
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:I wouldn't want someone to rip me apart
Why have you started up an "Abortion is wicked" vs "No it isn't" discussion where you can be emotive and strident, when all you are doing is banging a drum and wasting everybody's time?
@maxdancona,
Quote:You are making a classic strawman argument by making the obviously bogus claim that people can't find middle ground on a deeply emotional issue.
I have problems with a lot of possible reasons for a woman to decide to have an abortion however repeat however it is not my body that is the host to a fetus so why the hell should I or anyone else have the power to demand repeat demand under color of law that a woman carry a fetus to term?
In regard to the state having a right to demand that a woman carry to term a fetus I see little middle ground to the position of hell no.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:There is a difference between a callous ending of a pregnancy for family planning, and the need for an emergency abortion in a time of crisis.
Why?
If the fetus has "rights," then the circumstances of its conception shouldn't matter at all. On the other hand, if abortion is a woman's choice, then whether that choice is callous or not shouldn't matter at all.
@chai2,
How do you feel about capital punishment, Chai?
@joefromchicago,
Joe,
Abortion takes a life. We argue about whether it is a human life or not, but it is a life. There are many people who don't believe a fetus has rights and don't feel it is "murder" to have an abortion, but still feel deeply troubled by the practice.
That is what the it means to be in the middle.
The arguments you are putting forward are straw man arguments. Many people believe that abortions should be available for emergencies. They don't hold the opinions you are arguing against.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:There is a difference between a callous ending of a pregnancy for family planning, and the need for an emergency abortion in a time of crisis.
There is a difference, but what is the moral and/or legal difference?
I can see a difference to protect the life of the mother.
Otherwise, what is the moral difference between ending a pregnancy for family planning and ending a unwanted pregnancy because the woman was raped?
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