Thu 27 Aug, 2015 05:13 pm
Just the facts please. What does science say?
Yes. A fetus in the womb is a human being.
Define what you mean by what a human being is.
Perhaps you might want to phrase the question as "when is the fetus a VIABLE human being"? That means at what point can a fetus survive outside of the womb?
Left to develop, it will prove to be a human being. I don't think that could be denied.
In some venues, the fetus does not enjoy legal status as a human.
The moral implications have been argued here for many years.
unless it's a hybrid alien (extraterestrial), there are abductees who swear they walk among us
Is there room in the womb for alien doom?
i saw a pregnant woman the other day who looked like she had room for a log flume in her womb
You don't want to rassle with that kid.
I doubt science comes up with a consistent answer to the question, I mean it has been debated for a long time and as far as I know, no consensus
has been reached. If there has I would appreciate knowing it. Legally the answer the in the US is confusing. The supreme court gives the woman the right the choose whether to carry the fetus to term. On the other hand, if someone kills a pregnant woman, usually they are charged with two murders. (correct me if I am wrong)
As for myself, I have wrestled with this for most of my adult life. I consider myself a Christian with fairly traditional Christian values. Yet I don't have a clear answer the older I get. I used to be firm in thinking abortion is murder. I still think it yet, when I think some situations, I bend a little. Then I think to myself, well, I can't say it is for sure murder in this situation and maybe not in this situation. Then when you think of the pill you take that would kill any seed that would take root, is that not the same thing?
In the end I decided it should be left up to each person to decide how he or she feels about it and respect everyone's choice of belief.
A lot of rambling I know, but it is not an easy answer.
Traditionally, in church law, a child would not be a legal person until born and baptised. Medical science has mixed up this view. In Europe now in general a foetus is not considered a person while it is generally unviable, that is until after the 12th week of gestation.
I'm pregnant with my first and I think the second that you got pregnant, the baby in there is a human being, even though he's tiny tiny
One Man’s Thoughts: November 14, 2020
Abortion - Another Point of view
Again the abortion subject “Pro Life” or “Pro Choice” is blazing because there is a new Supreme Court Justice appointed to the court.
The people against abortion are out marching in front of the abortion clinics with signs saying “BABY KILLERS” on them.
The people for “WOMEN’S RIGHTS” are out marching in the street with their own signs
This has been going on for what seems like forever. I have listen to the Supreme Court opening arguments and read the Courts decision on “Roe vs. Wade. The Supreme Court side stepped all the “person” battles by ruling for the “Individual Rights of Woman over her body”. So abortion remains legal and the “person” battles were never truly resolved by the court. They still rage.
This subject doesn’t affect me personally or anyone I know, it just grates on my nerves every time it gets in the news. The legal view points seem to dance in circles around the true facts. One major fact that was not brought out in the Supreme Court analyses. Abortion laws and punishments from the beginning of historical records were made by males with a male point of view about reproduction. Females were considered as lower status to be used to pass along the genes of the male. Male children were highly prized because they are the ones the carries the fathers genes. The female babies were considered lower status like their mother. In relation to abortion nothing has really changed. Old laws made by males with a dominant male point of view are being put forward as examples.
Let’s consider what brings about pregnancy. There is 2 to 3 minutes of effort by the male of the species to donate the sperm and 9 months of carrying the zygote and fetus by the female of the species. Yet the males have made the laws and punishment that controls when the woman can end the process going on in her body if she chooses.
What are we fighting over? A woman’s right’s to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
How do we look at the reproduction of our species? Generally most people don’t think anything until they hear a woman say “I’m pregnant”. This statement triggers all kind of thoughts. Generally it’s not about the process going on inside the woman’s structure. It’s more in the realm of a mother holding a little baby in their arms or a child running around playing etc. So our minds jump from the beginning to the finished product oblivious of what the process in the middle really entails. Then we attach this finished product picture to the whole process from the beginning all the way to the end. “It’s making a baby of course” they say. A good dose of reality is needed. Medical people divide this process of reproduction into three parts, (1) The “embryo stage”, (2) the “fetus stage”, both happening inside the mother’s structure and (3) the “baby stage” which begins after the new structure leaves the mother’s structure and the umbilical cord closes down. The battle rages about where in this process does the new structure become a “person” with all the rights of a “person”? Some say it’s at conception when the sperm enters the egg. Some say it’s in the 4th or 5th week when the heart starts. Others claim it’s when the new structure becomes viable, which only means that it can survive if it is taken from the mother’s structure before normal birth. Others say it’s at “Quicking”, when the mother’s structure feels the first movements of the fetus.
The basic question is: What “Factual” things are going on inside or outside the mother’s structure that proves or disproves these various points of view? It’s easy to say incorrect things if you don’t have to prove them. Most people don’t really know nor have any understanding about what they are fighting for. They hear somebody yelling “BABY KILLER” or “WOMANS RIGHT” and join in without a single thought if what they are yelling is really true. The “BABY KILLER” groups all have one thing in common; they all look at the problem solely with a “finished product” point of view. The “Woman’s Rights” groups just view it as a woman problem to be ended.
So what is the answer? I am trying to clarify for myself, in simple terms, the answer to the question of when a member of the Homo sapiens species becomes a “person”. So this is my attempt, trying to be as correct as possible to the true facts using the internet as a source of information.
First a few definitions:
1. Concerned with what actually is the case rather than interpretations is of or reactions to it.
2. Actually occurring.
Capable of working successfully; feasible.
(of a fetus or unborn child) able to live after birth.
Signs of life felt by the mother as a result of fetal movements, usually appearing
16-20 weeks into pregnancy.
2. The nature or essence of a person.
3 A real or imaginary living creature or entity, especially an intelligent one.
1. A human being regarded as an individual.
2. Quoting Jurisprudence, Black’s Law Dictionary correctly reads: “So far as legal theory is concerned, a person is any being whom the law regards as capable of rights or duties.”
1. A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.
A thing with distinct and independent existence.
1. The capacity for growth, reproduction the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
2. The existence of an individual human being or animal.
3. The period between the birth and death of a living thing, especially a human being.
The way in which the parts of an object, such as the human body, are arranged.
When the sperm meets the egg what do you have? A single cell that contains two sets of 23 chromosomes in it. One set of 23 chromosomes from the father and one set of 23 chromosomes from the mother. Each one of those sets of chromosomes contains one sex chromosome and 22 basic chromosomes with construction steps for building a basic Homo sapiens structure with all the parts and controls and programming necessary to operate and maintain that structure using the inputs from millions of sensors built into the structure. The mother provides an “X” sex chromosome and the father provides either an “X” or “Y” sex chromosome. If the father provides a “X” sex chromosome then the new structure will be female. If the father provides a “Y” sex chromosome then the new structure will be male.
These two sets of chromosomes fuse and the new cell formed with 23 pairs of chromosomes starts to divide. The cluster of cells continue to divide as they move down into the uterus of the mother’s structure and physically attaches to the uterus wall creating a connection that provides nourishment, oxygen and waste removal for the growing number of cells. All the newly constructed parts, controls and programming necessary to operate and maintain the new structure are built in a stand-by mode during construction because the mother’s structure is providing thru the umbilical cord all the nourishment, oxygen and waste removal necessary for the support of the new structure during construction with one exception. During the 4th week or 5th week of building the new structure, the construction of the heart and its 3 control units are completed and the heart begins to beat. The three control cells will be incorporated into the brain and will operate the heart for the rest of the life of the new structure
All the way thru construction in both the “embryo stage” and the “fetus stage”, the new structure is directly connected to the mother’s structure with the umbilical cord. There fore during that time the new structure is a part of the mother’s structure and not a separate entity. There is no “PERSON” present. Only the parts, controls and programming necessary to construct, operate and maintain the new structure are present.
So when does a Homo sapiens become a person???
The answer to that might begin with what was stated before: “All the constructed parts, controls and programming necessary to operate and maintain the new structure are built in a stand-by mode because the mother’s structure is providing thru the umbilical cord, all the nourishment, oxygen and waste removal that is necessary for the new structure to live and develop.”
As the new structure travels down the birth canal the umbilical cord begins to close. This cuts off the nourishment, oxygen, and waste disposal provided by the mother’s structure. This triggers alarms to go off in the new structure’s controls as signals from sensors indicate the lowering of the quantity of oxygen and nourishment and an increase in waste in the new structure systems. The parts, controls and programming necessary to operate and maintain the new structure go from their stand-by mode to an operational mode and all the new structures parts, controls and programming begin to function. Processing and storing information from all those millions of sensors and operating all the parts of the new structure.
So this is when the “PERSON” is born and begins living and growing in the cerebrum part of the brain in the new structure, processing and analyzing and storing information from other parts of the brain and the millions of sensors built into the structure.
You know that there is a “PERSON”, you can see that person with an Electroencephalography (EEG). At least you see the electric energy discharge portion of that person. I wonder if there are psychic portions that we just haven’t been able to detect. My wife believed there were and I believe she may be right.
Also, if the “person” part of the brain is damaged and is in what is called a “Coma” or “Persistent Vegetative State”, the “structure” will still continue to function as long as it gets nourishment and oxygen. Only the “person” part has failed.
So this is the answer that I wanted to find. This is a simple answer in simple terms that most people can understand and consider. I am open to hearing other view points. You can’t find the truth without listening to other views and determining if or where you might need to change what you’re thinking. I feel I have covered the subject completely and accurately.
Other things said by the people against abortion:
The “BIBLE” says: “Be fruitful and multiply”. I believe that when those words were spoken and written that they were true and necessary. At that time the population of the human race was a lot smaller than now. Having children was hard on the mother and the child. The percentage of live births was smaller. The number of mothers not surviving the birth process was higher. If the child lived the chances of reaching the age of puberty and reproducing was questionable and the over all life span of people was much shorter in comparison with life spans today. Those words do not apply to this time in the evolution of the human race. In fact this attitude is what is causing the major problems plaguing humanity now. “Be fruitful and multiply” is now a possible death sentence for the human race on this planet due to over population and the destruction of this planet’s ecosystem.
Another untrue thing said: “Abortion is killing a baby”. There is no baby involved. The baby stage is after giving birth. Before that there isn’t any person, just a structure under construction. If you want to get right down and dirty, leaving all emotional thoughts aside, “abortion is the removal of an unwanted parasitic growth growing on the inside of a women’s uterus”. Now that’s a very cold definition getting down to the bare bones truth. Reality is what we are searching for. Not the emotional fantasy of what could be.
For all the women and men that truly wanted a child and the women suffered the trauma of a miscarriage or even worst a still birth, the child you hoped for did not die, only the new structure they were going to live in failed. Your hopes and dreams were not fulfilled but you can build another new structure and hopefully it will be completed and that entity or person that is your child can be born and live in that new structure and have a long life.
For the woman who wants an abortion of an unwanted pregnancy due to rape, incest or just a mistake that would ruin your dreams, don’t think of it as killing a baby. In reality,
All you’re doing is removing a new structure under construction. No person exists
This is my view point on abortion and birth from what I have researched on line. I have tried to make it as simple and correct as possible. It seems like every one has latched onto one or two points and lost sight of the whole picture. The whole thing is pretty straight forward if you eliminate all the incorrect emotional clutter.
By the way I want to say I love babies. I have not had any of my own but I enjoy watching and interacting with other peoples children. I see the joy and happiness they bring.
But we all have to also see and understand that under some circumstances there is also a very dark side to having a baby. Under those circumstances the mother involved has a sole right to her choices. It is not the right of other people to force their personal or religious beliefs on these women. We are not even close to the extinction point of the human race yet. In fact we are nearing the opposite extreme point. (See below)
You may ask when if ever I believe that abortion might be considered illegal:
(1) When the abortion is forced on a woman who wants to have the baby.
(2) If the human race was on the verge of extinction and the birth might contribute to saving the human race from extinction. This may also depend on the reason we are on the verge of extinction. If it was caused by the stupidity of the human race with the over population and destruction to the planet like we are doing right now, then maybe we need to disappear as a species. Go like the dinosaurs. Let some other species take over. If it was due to a natural disaster then maybe it might give us a second chance to do better.
Conservatives want all babies to be born. And once they are their on their own. Good Christian values?
No a fetus is not a human being. Definition human being: A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech and upright stance.