What I Think About Abortion

Be that as it may, I'm not as contentious as you, stating a woman HAS to look you in the eye and say. "Yes, I killed my baby."

Happy now?

"I support abortion rights – but..."

There is much ambivalence when it comes to this subject, for reasons that have been brought up in this discussion. Few people seem to offer unequivocal support and often couch their limited approval with disclaimers. Such has been the success of the mandatory motherhood movement even in a country where a majority of voters think abortion should be legal.

I never said that. I wouldn’t confront any woman faced with that decision. I just introduced it into this conversation the fact that it’s sometimes a viable human being that gets killed, and nobody seems to acknowledge that.

I suppose there is a reason for your nastiness here, but I’m going to let it be your problem, not mine.

Oh.

I see.

Now I'm being "nasty" because I point out your truth. It's not a problem, it's an observation. I've pointed out many truths in this thread, INCLUDING that yes, a human being is killed. It has been and will continue to be acknowledged.

No, you’re not nasty for “telling the truth”. You’re being nasty when you infer that stupid, insensitive, misogynistic things are being said that I am not saying.

I've had a long discussion about this in the past, but I'll reiterate some thoughts here.

- There is a philosophical and a legal side to this. The philosophical side as to when life starts is up to each individual and I think there are a lot of valid ways to look at it. The legal side is very straightforward. In the US, life begins with "live birth". When you are born, you get a certificate stating such, you become eligible for a SS number, you become a citizen. Some years ago, a coworker suffered a late term miscarry after the umbilical cord got wrapped around the fetus's neck. It was tremendously tragic. No government entity in the US ever recognized that fetus as a child although in the parents' hearts it clearly was.

- Recognizing a fetus as a child has huge legal implications. Citizenship based on where you are conceived? Is a miscarriage (which happens in 10-20% of pregnancies) the death of a child? Should police be brought in to investigate the parents? (This happens in some countries that ban abortion.) Does insurance pay out? Can you claim a fetus on your taxes as a dependent? You may think I am being flippant, I am not trying to be. Can the mother be held for child abuse if she drinks a glass of wine, smokes a cigarette, drives without a seatbelt, eats kale? (Ok, maybe a little flippant there at the end, but kale, really?)

- In the case of medically required abortions, if you treat the fetus as a child, I can see no recourse but for the mother to be forced to carry the child to viability even if it is likely to kill her. If the mother has a 90% chance to die carrying the fetus to viability but abortion results in a 100% chance of death to the fetus and you consider them equally, the fetus wins. Don't think this will happen? It already has.

- Why is any of this our business? Adults make hard medical decisions all the time and the state does not feel the need to inject itself into the discussion between patient and doctor. I can see saying "I'm uncomfortable with this and would not pursue this course" but I cannot see saying "I'm uncomfortable with this so I'm going to inject myself in everyone else's medical decisions." There are people who are uncomfortable with tubal ligation and vasectomies or the use of birth control or people getting plastic surgery, but that is their problem. There seems to be a prevalent view that women get abortions with little thought, as just an extension of birth control. In my experience, it is entirely the opposite. It is an agonizing decision and the heaps of derision poured upon the woman just makes it that much harder. It seems to be to be an intensely personal decision which the rest of us have no interest in.

I take issue with the suggestion that counselling = coercion. I think for the many women who are distressed about the ending of a life that is a part of them, it would be a welcome relief. Someone non-judgemental, impartial, objective, and who has heard it all before. Surely an abortion clinic wouldn't deliberately hire pro-life counsellors. The counselling is not there to convince the woman not to go through with it, as has been suggested, but to help the woman deal with her conflicting emotions, to provide support.

I can't talk about America,but over here I'm sure counselling is offered, good counselling encourages the counselled to talk about what they want.

One of the other posters talked of counselling as if the positive outcome would be keeping the child.

The positive outcome is what is best for the mother and child, and that may well be termination.

There has been an awful case of a poor kid being tortured and murdered by his parents. His name was Arthur Labinjo, and take my word, you don't want to know the details it's so distressing.

Anyway, termination would have been a much better outcome for him, some people shouldn't have children.

As another poster recently told me, this issue is “fraught with moral uncertainty”. It’s not an easy or popular thing to talk about. Just saying the word “abortion” raises hackles. Believe it or not, I get it when women say that men should shut the hell up about it entirely.

So I appreciate the opportunity to at least try to get some air and light into the discussion, and all of those who have made good faith efforts to discuss it.

Unfortunately, current events dictate that it’s an issue that is going to be out and about for the foreseeable future.

But you ARE saying that.



I've asked YOU why you feel that a woman owes you this type of information. You've yet to respond. I'm not sure if you really understand the pretentious nature of YOUR statement. It's rude, condescending, horribly mean and downright offensive. A woman owes you NOTHING.

Yet you call me "nasty."

I didn’t mean I’d be having that discussion with a person that was going through an abortion or an abortion decision. I meant that no one on the pro-choice side who talks about this seemed to acknowledge the thing about taking a human life.

You’re treating me like someone with a “baby killers” placard, marching around a planned parenthood clinic and screaming at the women going inside.

I don’t deserve that.

Obviously you have some very raw feelings about this, but I haven’t done anything to you to deserve all the bile.

I’m not going to continue this with you.

I'm probably going to regret reopening this, but this is a rather comprehensive list of all the nuances of American waiting periods, counseling, etc.: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/counseling-and-waiting-periods-abortion

The Guttmacher Institute (per their About page) "is a leading research and policy organization committed to advancing sexual and reproductive health and rights (SRHR) worldwide."

So let's talk about South Dakota, where there's a 72 hour waiting period and, tellingly, weekends and annual state holidays don't count. Hence a woman trying to get an abortion on the Friday afternoon before Memorial Day weekend would have to wait nearly a full week. How do I get that much time?
1 Sat of Memorial Day weekend
2 Sun of Memorial Day weekend
3 Memorial Day
4 first 24 hours of 72
5 second 24 hours of 72
6 third 24 hours of 72

South Dakota also has only 1 provider (according to Planned Parenthood, see: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-south-dakota-advocate/issues/abortion) and bans the procedure after 20 weeks. If Memorial Day weekend is the middle of the 19th week for our hypothetical above, the waiting period will kick her out of being able to get an abortion.

North Dakota, in contrast, has only a 24 hour waiting period. But North and South Dakota are also both in the top 20 in terms of state size (see https://statesymbolsusa.org/symbol-official-item/national-us/uncategorized/states-size). And for both states, there's a ton of open space and no public transportation beyond some buses.

A poor woman without a car or any vacation time is effectively banned from getting an abortion in either state.

The Guttmacher list also gets into what's being counseled. And some of it is just plain inaccurate, clearly meant to scare people.

I have little doubt that there are wonderful, caring counselors in a lot of the US who do their best while abiding by all legal requirements.

But I also have little doubt that there are counselors who aren't so caring, and who use the opportunity as a means of furthering their own agenda(s), whether those are anti- or pro-abortion. That's the nature of every profession, that there are people who really shouldn't be doing what they're doing.

Anyway, after dropping this here, I am going back to lurking.

This is a volatile subject at best. Let's try to be civilized, folks, please.

Thank you.

Can you recommend any good lurking spots?

I am firmly against abortion. Therefore, I will not have one. In that I am male, I will keep my opinion about abortion to myself unless a woman asks me to express it and in doing so I will remain respectful to the woman. An abortion is a private thing between a woman and her doctor/s and absolutely none of my freaking business unless I am asked to be involved.

If men required abortions, you'd bet birth control would be free anywhere and abortions could be obtained as a walk-in service on every street corner.

If the woman wish counselling that is fine however demanding the woman have counselling before having an abortion she wish to have is not ok in anyway.

It's optional, Bill, but someone earlier suggested it was coercion intimating it was possibly a way to change the woman's mind.

One think no one has brought up so far is the rights of the father. Have there been any rulings that have dealt with that? That's a whole other can of worms. I think I read or heard a few years ago about a father contesting the abortion but I don't know the result. Guess I'll go to Google.

In the case of the abortion of his child, he has no rights.

Even though the female egg cell, also called ‘ovum’ is dormant and lifeless, and if not fertilised by the living male sperm cell, it will be flushed down the drain with the monthly blood flow. And even though it is the male who gives life, the Supreme court does not give rights to the father of an unborn child to prevent abortion. Fathers do not have to be notified prior to an abortion, the decision is left entirely in the hands of the mother.

How many women have held the threat of terminating her partners potential child unless he toed the line in the sand that she has drawn?

If he's the husband, he should have some input. If he's a sperm donor, it's not really his business.

Only if asked.

And if the life giver to what is forming in the woman's womb, answers the question he was asked, and that answer is not acceptable to the woman, who is determined to abort his potential child, what rights does he have then?

As seen in my previous post.

Even though the female egg cell, also called ‘ovum’ is dormant and lifeless, and if not fertilised by the living male sperm cell, it will be flushed down the drain with the monthly blood flow. And even though it is the male who gives life, the Supreme court does not give rights to the father of an unborn child to prevent abortion. Fathers do not have to be notified prior to an abortion, the decision is left entirely in the hands of the mother.