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If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten son?

 
 
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 09:21 pm
The word 'trinity' does not appear in the bible. Why is it such an important belief? Question
 
SN95
 
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Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 04:36 am
I'd also like to know why some find it to be such an important belief.

In the beginning, Christianity did not hold to the Trinity doctrine. That doctrine developed slowly and did not become officially creedal fact until 325 C.E. Nearly 300 years after the presumed time of Jesus' death.
AliceInWonderland
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 02:22 pm
While the word 'trinity' is not used in the Bible, there are numerous verses that point to this doctrine. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Jesus being the Word)

Matthew 28:19 (Jesus speaking) . . . baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Name, NOT names, indicating one]

This is just a couple of examples; there are many more. It's important because Christianity is a monotheistic belief, not polytheistic.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 05:40 pm
AliceInWonderland wrote:
While the word 'trinity' is not used in the Bible, there are numerous verses that point to this doctrine. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Jesus being the Word)

Matthew 28:19 (Jesus speaking) . . . baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Name, NOT names, indicating one]

This is just a couple of examples; there are many more. It's important because Christianity is a monotheistic belief, not polytheistic.
I suppose we should rewrite Matthew 27:46 " Oh me; Oh my; Why have I forsaken myself?"
I wonder. To whom did Jesus pray?
BTW, many bibles render John 1:1 as "the Word was divine."
real life
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 06:27 am
Re: If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten so
neologist wrote:
The word 'trinity' does not appear in the bible. Why is it such an important belief? Question
What you are really questioning is the Deity of Christ, no matter what label you put on this belief; that is the crux of the matter. Is Jesus really God?

Since Jesus made the claim that he was God, you are left with three basic options:

1. He was wrong. He lied. He is not God and He knew it.

If this is so and Jesus was such a blatant charlatan, then you must answer how did he so firmly establish the greatest moral teachings the human race has ever known?

2. He was wrong. He was deceived. He thought he was God but was disconnected from reality. He was basically a lunatic.

If this is so then you must determine how he gave the world a way of life that even today engrosses the deepest philosophical minds in endless debates over it's nuances and meanings.

3. He was right. He is God.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:00 am
Re: If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten so
real life wrote:
neologist wrote:
The word 'trinity' does not appear in the bible. Why is it such an important belief? Question
What you are really questioning is the Deity of Christ, no matter what label you put on this belief; that is the crux of the matter. Is Jesus really God?

Since Jesus made the claim that he was God, you are left with three basic options:

1. He was wrong. He lied. He is not God and He knew it.

If this is so and Jesus was such a blatant charlatan, then you must answer how did he so firmly establish the greatest moral teachings the human race has ever known?

2. He was wrong. He was deceived. He thought he was God but was disconnected from reality. He was basically a lunatic.

If this is so then you must determine how he gave the world a way of life that even today engrosses the deepest philosophical minds in endless debates over it's nuances and meanings.

3. He was right. He is God.
Denying that Jesus is one and the same with God does not deny his divine nature. Please, if you are going to reference scripture, provide chapter and verse.
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Discreet
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:39 am
the trinity was set up to help people understand God jesus and the holy spirit and how they are one.

St patrick is famous for using the 3 leaf clover analogy. Saying that there are 3 parts but they are still one thing.

God is the creator Jesus is the forgiver and the holy spirit is what lives in every individual a strive for a higher power if you will.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 08:55 am
Discreet wrote:
the trinity was set up to help people understand God jesus and the holy spirit and how they are one.

St patrick is famous for using the 3 leaf clover analogy. Saying that there are 3 parts but they are still one thing.

God is the creator Jesus is the forgiver and the holy spirit is what lives in every individual a strive for a higher power if you will.

The concept of the trinity existed in pagan religions long before it was adopted into nominal christianity. It obscures the true value of Jesus' sacrifice - what it meant to God - and what it meant to Jesus, a seperate individual. I appreciate your signature.
real life
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 11:04 am
Re: If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten so
neologist wrote:
real life wrote:
neologist wrote:
The word 'trinity' does not appear in the bible. Why is it such an important belief? Question
What you are really questioning is the Deity of Christ, no matter what label you put on this belief; that is the crux of the matter. Is Jesus really God?

Since Jesus made the claim that he was God, you are left with three basic options:

1. He was wrong. He lied. He is not God and He knew it.

If this is so and Jesus was such a blatant charlatan, then you must answer how did he so firmly establish the greatest moral teachings the human race has ever known?

2. He was wrong. He was deceived. He thought he was God but was disconnected from reality. He was basically a lunatic.

If this is so then you must determine how he gave the world a way of life that even today engrosses the deepest philosophical minds in endless debates over it's nuances and meanings.

3. He was right. He is God.
Denying that Jesus is one and the same with God does not deny his divine nature. Please, if you are going to reference scripture, provide chapter and verse.
I did not quote a Scripture. Any problem with an argument from logic?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 11:19 am
Re: If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten so
real life wrote:
I did not quote a Scripture. Any problem with an argument from logic?

real life wrote:
Since Jesus made the claim that he was God


Sorry if I misunderstood. Where did Jesus make this claim?
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real life
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 03:54 pm
Jesus was tried and executed for blasphemy, his claim to be God. If you haven't found that in the Bible, you should. But of course, the Watchtower Society to which you belong has done it's best to erase references to Christ's Deity from their version of the Bible.

I understand that the strategy of the Watchtower is always to try to avoid this line of thought , and instead focus on the word "trinity", which we are told with great emphasis "is not even in the Bible!". Neither is Omnipresence nor a lot of other words that are used in discussing God. It is such a bogus argument , I can't believe that it is still used. But with semantic sleight of hand, it is pulled out repeatedly as though it had any real effect.

The real problem Jehovah's Witnesses have with the Deity of Christ comes down to the intellect. If you cannot understand it, you don't believe it.

God is much greater than your ability to understand. But the Watchtower society plays upon man's pride in his intellect and skirts the issue. That is why I presented you with a logical argument. Perhaps, I thought, you can relate, but I see that you have avoided it as well.

I have had many discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses at my house and the strategy is always the same. They want to dispute the "trinity" and they leave angrily when I insist on discussing Christ's Deity.
neologist
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:46 pm
Jesus was also accused of treason (Luke 23: 1,2). Are we to conclude by your line of reasoning that he was guilty of that as well?

Let's forget about the trinity, since that was not the original question of this thread. Was Jesus divine? Yes! He is the master worker referred to in Proverbs chapter 8. He is the foremost of all creation, the one who was instantly ready in the Garden of Eden to make himself available as the seed to answer Satan's challenge.

Was Jesus in fact God? If so, to whom did he pray? Who resurrected him? Are you saying he did not really die?

Were you to invite me into your house, I would never leave angrily, even if you booted me out.
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real life
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 07:54 pm
Yes questions like "who did Jesus pray to?" are difficult to understand. You prove my point when you bring them up.

Your issue is one of intellectual pride. You cannot accept the fact that something may be true-- even if you do not understand it.
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neologist
 
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Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 10:46 pm
Excuse me; I should have asked "to whom did Jesus pray?" Will my corrected grammar make the question easier to understand? To whom is Jesus talking in the 17th chapter of John? It's interesting that neither the Jews nor the early Christians (until the 4th century) had any concept of the trinity (oops, I mean Godhead) but it was a clearly defined pagan belief.

You claim I don't understand what you are talking about. Interesting. Should we consult a clergyman? My impressions of how a clergyman might find enlightenment are posted HERE
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 10:49 pm
real life wrote:
Yes questions like "who did Jesus pray to?" are difficult to understand. You prove my point when you bring them up.

Your issue is one of intellectual pride. You cannot accept the fact that something may be true-- even if you do not understand it.
Excuse me again. It wasn't my grammar; it was your quote.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 07:05 am
I really don't understand why Jehovah's witnesses have such problems with the trinity. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the Bible after all. If one does not acknowledge the trinity, one has to claim either that Jesus is not divine, or that there are multiple deities, which would be polytheism. In my opinion there is only one logical answer, and that is that the Father and the Son are One.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 08:30 am
Jesus is divine, being God's first born son and through whom all things were created. However, he is not one and the same person as God, nor is he the one to whom our worship should be directed.

Is he the most honored of all creation? Yes.
Would we have any hope without him? No.
Should we be grateful? Absolutely!
Should we worship him? No, but we must pray through him.

This is what I have been told so far in this discourse:

Real life said that since my questions are difficult to understand, he does not need to provide an answer. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Several including you, Derevon, have said that since I cannot understand the ideas you have declined to explain, Jesus must be God.

These are very interesting arguments, typical of those used by the clergy to hoodwink mankind for thousands of years.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 10:02 am
neologist wrote:
Jesus is divine, being God's first born son and through whom all things were created. However, he is not one and the same person as God


Not the same person, but still they are One. Therein lies the mystery of the divine trinity. Three persons, One essence. There can be only One divine! Anything more would be contradictory.

Quote:
nor is he the one to whom our worship should be directed.


Jesus is divine, and does therefore merit worship/adoration.

Quote:
Several including you, Derevon, have said that since I cannot understand the ideas you have declined to explain, Jesus must be God.


There is much Scriptural support for them being One. For example:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

The above clearly shows Jesus is the Word made flesh. That He is God incarnate. Then we have:

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (John 14:9-14:20)

The above passage clearly tells us that the Son dwells in the Father, and the Father in the Son, that is, they are One.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 05:30 pm
Thanks for your reply.

If you are referring to their being one in purpose, I would have to agree. That doesn't make them an identity. Not only did Jesus refuse worship, he specifically told his followers to approach the Father in his name, not the other way around.

I've taken your quote and made two changes; First, I added the verse divisions for the purpose of me being able to keep them straight. Second, I've marked in red the places where Jesus separates himself from his father. I'll have to ask you if what I've done makes sense.

John 14:9-20 wrote:
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the FatherThe world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (John 14:9-14:20)


You say you can't understand how someone would not understand the trinity. Yet it was completely unknown both to the Jews and to the early Christians (though quite popular among pagans). Note what the New Catholic Encyclopedia has to say:
Quote:


And once again I ask: To whom did Jesus pray?
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Derevon
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2005 06:37 pm
Again, I'm not saying they're one "identity". They are One essence! The same divine essence, yet three persons.

Also, I'm not saying that the trinity concept is easy to understand. All I'm saying is that the only way that everything in the above quote can be reconciled logically is through the trinity concept. Otherwise one has to dismiss certain parts of it. You seem to dismiss "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?", and that is essentially what I have a problem with.

As for 'trinity' not being mentioned in the Bible, it's hardly suprising. The term wasn't even coined back then. The term itself is quite irrelevant, though. The important thing is that the Son dwells in the Father and the Father in the Son. That he who knows the Son knows the Father.

Quote:
And once again I ask: To whom did Jesus pray?


Jesus prayed to His Heavenly Father of course. One person to another, yet the same deity. This is obviously very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to fully comprehend for the human mind, though. However, one must bear in mind that God is infinitely much more than we can possibly understand. God is infinite, and we mortals are merely finite. There is no ratio between the finite and the infinite, and as such the two are beyond comparison. In the passage I quoted above from John 14, Jesus asks Philip to believe that he is in the Father and that the Father is in him. He asks him to have faith in this truth, and therefore we should not reject it, even if we cannot understand it.
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