Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 12:29 pm
I don't think I have brought this up before, but if I have forgive me. I'm at work on lunch and only have a few more minutes so thought I'd jot this down.

What are your views on the oneness vs. the trinity doctrine? For those that do not know what oneness is (if there are any that don't) it is the belief that Jesus is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

There are two views of the trinity, from my experience anyway: One view is that the trinity is actually three separate persons making up one godhead. The other is one entity/person with three different manifestations.

I am very curious as to your thoughts?
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:49 pm
My belief is that God is God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. In other words the trinity.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 06:50 pm
My belief is that the word trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.


http://www.thunderministries.com/history/triad/trihindu.jpg

Common to other beliefs, though.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 08:03 pm
I agree it is not in the Bible neo. However; the concept is. I had never known that some people thought the trinity meant three separate persons. I had always thought it meant three manifestations of one God. I can tell you what I believe.

I believe the three are one. Do I think they are all Jesus? Yes and no. How? I have no clue. I only know that God can do anything. Some seem to think it is a matter of salvation as to whether you believe in the trinity or oneness. I don't think it is a salvation issue.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 08:18 pm
Neo, The bible does speak of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Do you consider the fact that the word trinity is not mentioned to mean that there is no such thing?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 09:35 pm
It should be obvious that Jesus is not equal to his father; nor is he in any way the same person.

To whom did he pray?

Who resurrected him?

Who glorified him? (Hebrews 5:5)

To whom was he obedient? (Hebrews 5:8)

There is no doubt in my mind that he is the foremost one of God's creations and without him we would all be up a desperate creek. In fact, he is the one through whom we should direct our prayers to the Father. But that still does not make him equal.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 07:25 am
Neo, then what did Jesus mean when He said, I and the Father are one and if you have seen me then you have seen the Father?
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 09:20 am
neologist wrote:
It should be obvious that Jesus is not equal to his father; nor is he in any way the same person.

To whom did he pray?

Who resurrected him?

Who glorified him? (Hebrews 5:5)

To whom was he obedient? (Hebrews 5:8)

There is no doubt in my mind that he is the foremost one of God's creations and without him we would all be up a desperate creek. In fact, he is the one through whom we should direct our prayers to the Father. But that still does not make him equal.


Why should it be obvious? I did not say equal... I said the same.

I will be interested to see your answer to Arella Mae's question.
0 Replies
 
Derevon
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 09:53 am
This quote alone from John 20:27-28 should be enough to disprove the hypothesis that Jesus is not One with the Father.

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 12:09 pm
Derevon,

I must be missing your line of thinking on this. How does this prove Jesus is not One with the Father?
Derevon
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 12:22 pm
No, on the contrary. It proves He is, since Thomas called him God, and since Jesus didn't rebuke him.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 12:40 pm
Oh! I gotcha now! Sorry, I have a horrible headache because it's raining like crazy here and my mind does not seem to be connecting all that well.

I agree with you that scripture says Jesus is God. Also, there is ......the word was with God, and the Word WAS God. We all know the "Word" is Jesus.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:20 am
Derevon wrote:
No, on the contrary. It proves He is, since Thomas called him God, and since Jesus didn't rebuke him.
Good to see you back, Derevon.

Jesus was referred to as "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6. John 1:1 refers to him as a god. So it is no surprise that Thomas would be moved to exclaim as he did.

However, Jesus never referred to himself
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 07:21 am
Actually Neo, Jesus does refer to Himself as God in Revelation 1:8

[quote]"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."[/quote]

Revelation 1:1 makes it clear this is "a revelation of JESUS CHRIST."
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:51 am
Arella Mae wrote:
Actually Neo, Jesus does refer to Himself as God in Revelation 1:8

[quote]"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."


Revelation 1:1 makes it clear this is "a revelation of JESUS CHRIST."[/color][/quote]Read the whole chapter.
Vs. 6 makes it plain that Jesus' father is God.

Most bible scholars realize the designation 'Alpha and Omega' does not apply to Jesus, but to his father. That is why the phrase "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and. . . " is left out of vs. 11 in many translations.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:11 pm
I never said that Jesus' Father was not God, did I? You made reference to Jesus not being the Almighty, which the Bible clearly states He is.

He is also called the Everlasting Father in Isaiah. There are, as far as I am concerned, more than enough scriptures to prove that Jesus is God.
In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God. That one is rather glaring pointing to the divinity of Christ, isn't it?

Or how about God manifestated Himself in flesh and dwelt amongst us? And there is always the Angel in Revelation telling John not to worship him, but to worship God, Jesus Christ? Or how He was seen by men, worshipped by angels, and ascended into heaven?

I can get the scripture for you but I am pretty confident you already know them. This is a debate that I doubt will be solved until we are with Jesus and then we can have all our questions answered. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:24 pm
Yeah, but vs. 6 also says Jesus' Father is his God.

You have to be careful.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:27 pm
Neo,

There is one thing you cannot get around no matter how hard you try. Jesus was sinless. NO ONE but God is sinless. The Bible goes so far to say that no one is even GOOD except God, much less sinless. :wink:
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:50 pm
It is true that Jesus was sinless.

It is not true that no one but God is sinless.

Adam and Eve could have been sinless.

Faithful angels are sinless.

Remember that Jesus was referred to as obedient.

Also that Satan was permitted to tempt Jesus.

Have you ever considered how the trinity doctrine cheapens the value of Jesus' ransom?

A sacrifice prefigured many years before when Abraham was ready to offer up Isaac.

Are you trying to say there were not two distinct personalities involved in Jesus suffering at Calvary?

Or, that Jesus resurrected himself?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 01:37 pm
Adam and Eve could have been sinless but WERE NOT sinless. Only God is sinless.

If you will go back and read what I posted about how I view the trinity that might answer your question about cheapening the ransom. If not, we can discuss it further.

I know Jehovah Witnesses do not believe Jesus is God. With that part of your doctrine I completely disagree and always will. However, as I stated earlier, I don't believe believing it is "trinity" or "oneness" is a salvation issue.

You are easy to converse with on these issues Neo so let me ask you a question? The Bible says Jesus was better than all the angels. Hebrew 1:4 or 6 I believe. Yet, doesn't it cheapen His position by saying He is Michael the Archangel?
 

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