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If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten son?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 12:39 pm
Derevon wrote:
Since Jesus is one with the Father, and since the Father is eternal, it follows that Jesus is also eternal and uncreated.
How then is he begotten?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 12:41 pm
Who is being quoted in Proverbs 8: 22-31?
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 04:05 pm
neologist wrote:
Who is being quoted in Proverbs 8: 22-31?


Wisdom itself it would seem from the context.

Anyhow, that Jesus is indeed God is stated clearly in John 20:27-29:

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This part is basically the same in the New World Translation, which pretty much means that JW contradict their own bible when they deny that Jesus is One with God.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 06:56 pm
One time, when I ate too much pizza, I exclaimed "My god." Obviously, that meant pizza was my god.
Another time, when my son nearly died at birth and then lived, I said "My God."

Truly, at neither time did I expect my words to be taken literally. Thomas was merely reacting to an experience which would have had any of us exclaim "My lord and my God."

BTW, if you can't see the parallel between the scripture in proverbs and the identity of Jesus, I don't know what to add. I'm just not smart enough.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 04:26 am
Oh please. Thomas answers directly to Jesus "My Lord and my God!" and Jesus answers him, not by rebuking him or anything, but He says: "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Just because you Americans tend to say "Oh my god" all the time, it certainly doesn't mean that people in the area in question did that 2000 years ago. The mere notion that one of the twelve Disciples would use God's name in such a manner is far-fetched beyond belief in my opinion.

No, it seems to me that you simply do not want to believe in the oneness of God and Jesus, and therefore stretch interpretations and ignore inconvenient parts of the Bible in order to try to satisfy your reason.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 09:24 am
Derevon wrote:
the Bible which JW use (The New World Translation) translates the original Greek word "proskuneo" to "worship" on every occasion, except for when it refers to Jesus. From it, it seems clear that the NWT is a biased translation made to suit JW beliefs. Every other English Bible I've looked in translates it to "worship" also on these occasions.
Derevon wrote:
You have to try to understand that God is much more than a mere person. The Father and the Son are not the same identities as such, yet they are One in essence, with One will, perfectly aligned and in harmony.
So far, so good.
Derevon wrote:
Just because you Americans tend to say "Oh my god" all the time, it certainly doesn't mean that people in the area in question did that 2000 years ago. The mere notion that one of the twelve Disciples would use God's name in such a manner is far-fetched beyond belief in my opinion.
Do you want to bring up the subject of God's name? I'm sure it deserves a thread of it's own. God's name, Jehovah or Yahweh or YHWH, if you prefer, means "He causes to become." No one else bears that name. The name Jesus or Yeshua or Yehohshua or Joshua means "Jehovah Is Salvation". The words kyrios and theos spoken by Thomas show great respect and appreciation for the divine nature of the event, nothing more.
Derevon wrote:
No, it seems to me that you simply do not want to believe . . . , and therefore stretch interpretations and ignore inconvenient parts of the Bible in order to try to satisfy your reason.
Yeah, what you said.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 12:26 am
neologist wrote:
Derevon wrote:
Since Jesus is one with the Father, and since the Father is eternal, it follows that Jesus is also eternal and uncreated.
How then is he begotten?
"Begotten" simply means that He came (to earth to be born) from God.

Just as in Genesis, when Jehovah appeared to Abraham as a man, it didn't lessen the fact that He was God. So when Jesus was born a man, it didn't diminish His Deity.

But what does this scripture mean, since it refers to a son's name as Mighty God and Everlasting Father? -------

"For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 04:24 am
Derevon wrote:
The problem, I believe, is the inability of the human mind to comprehend the multifaceted nature of God. There are three persons who are all One essence. They are not equal in the sense that they are the same persons, they are equal in that they are the same Deity. If one person suffers, all suffer, but not necessarily so in the same manner. They are after all different persons, representing different aspects of God's wholeness.


Oh come on, that's a cop out. You claim to understand God to this extent, why not go further? It can't be that hard to resolve this same god/different god problem.

Are you saying that God has three minds?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 08:12 am
agrote wrote:
Derevon wrote:
The problem, I believe, is the inability of the human mind to comprehend the multifaceted nature of God. There are three persons who are all One essence. They are not equal in the sense that they are the same persons, they are equal in that they are the same Deity. If one person suffers, all suffer, but not necessarily so in the same manner. They are after all different persons, representing different aspects of God's wholeness.


Oh come on, that's a cop out. You claim to understand God to this extent, why not go further? It can't be that hard to resolve this same god/different god problem.

Are you saying that God has three minds?

Perhaps the real mystery is how so many otherwise intelligent people have allowed themselves to be hoodwinked. Obviously, this is not what Jesus meant when he said "We worship what we know." (John 4:22)
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 08:39 am
agrote wrote:
Derevon wrote:
The problem, I believe, is the inability of the human mind to comprehend the multifaceted nature of God. There are three persons who are all One essence. They are not equal in the sense that they are the same persons, they are equal in that they are the same Deity. If one person suffers, all suffer, but not necessarily so in the same manner. They are after all different persons, representing different aspects of God's wholeness.


Oh come on, that's a cop out. You claim to understand God to this extent, why not go further? It can't be that hard to resolve this same god/different god problem.

Are you saying that God has three minds?
I believe he said the human mind is NOT able to understand the full nature of God.

If you believe it can't be that hard, I suggest you give it a go. However, unless I am mistaken, you have a human mind as well. You might find it harder than you imagine to understand such concepts as Infinity.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 10:03 am
real life wrote:
If you believe it can't be that hard, I suggest you give it a go.


Okay. My solution: there is no God. Laughing

~OR~

If there is a God (I don't believe there is), then there is either more than one God, or there is only the one God. If there is only one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot all be Gods unless they are different names for the same one God.

Either "Father = Son = Holy Spirit," in the same way that "agrote = Ben" - in which case, if Jesus buys a pack of chewing gum, then the Father buys a pack of chewing gum, and the Holy Spirit buys a pack of chewing gum.

Or, the father, the son and the holy spirit are three different things, which may or may not be Gods.

So there are only three possibilities, as I see it:
1) F = S = HS
2) F ≠ S ≠ HS
3) One or more of [F, S, HS] does not exist


The the Christian idea of the trinity does not seem to fit any of these.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 10:10 am
It's a sad commentary on priestcraft when the arguments of the atheist make more sense than those of the priest.
Agrote; Derevon and real life have just condemned you to hell. I, on the other hand would like to buy you a brew, explain there is no such thing as hell, and enjoy the conversation. (with or without conversion)
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 10:37 am
I should add, actually, that those aren't the only possibilities - maybe F = HS, but neither of them = S, for example.

But anyway, I'd appreciate the brew, thanks. Smile
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 11:01 am
Here's one until we meet:http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/beer.gif
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 09:08 pm
agrote wrote:
Okay. My solution: there is no God. Laughing
Hi Agrote,

Not exactly original, or the product of much effort on your part, I see. Well ....... I don't want you to strain yourself or anything like that.

But since you like math, you might consider how 1+1+1= 3, but 1x1x1=1 .

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

That probably qualifies with some as trinitarianism, and others as not trinitarian enough. But it is what the Bible teaches.

BTW, Neologist, I don't remember my making any reference to hell. Can you refresh my memory?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 10:03 pm
real life wrote:

BTW, Neologist, I don't remember my making any reference to hell. Can you refresh my memory?
You didn't. I put words in your mouth. Sorry Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 10:11 am
real life wrote:
agrote wrote:
Okay. My solution: there is no God. Laughing
Hi Agrote,

Not exactly original, or the product of much effort on your part, I see. Well ....... I don't want you to strain yourself or anything like that.

But since you like math, you might consider how 1+1+1= 3, but 1x1x1=1 .

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

That probably qualifies with some as trinitarianism, and others as not trinitarian enough. But it is what the Bible teaches.

BTW, Neologist, I don't remember my making any reference to hell. Can you refresh my memory?


I don't like maths, I like logic.

The bible teaches that F = God, JC = God, and HS = God. This entails that F = JC = HS, since identity is a transitive relationship. If Maggie is the fastest athlete in the world, and the fastest athlete in the world is the author of a book called 'blah di blah,' then Maggie is the author of a book called 'blah di blah.' Rubbish example I know, but it'll do. So if F = God, and JC = God, then F = JC. If JC = the one who died for our sins, then F = the one who died for our sins, since JC = F. But do trinitarians really believe that the Father died for our sins? I think not. So their beliefs are illogical
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 10:27 am
agrote wrote:

The bible teaches that F = God, JC = God, and HS = God.
BZZZZT! The bible does not teach that JC=God or HS=God. Preachers teach that.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 10:37 am
neologist wrote:
agrote wrote:

The bible teaches that F = God, JC = God, and HS = God.
BZZZZT! The bible does not teach that JC=God or HS=God. Preachers teach that.


Well, to be honest I'm not entirely sure. I was just quoting real life - if what he says about trinitarians is correct, then trinitarians have a problem.
0 Replies
 
Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 03:04 pm
agrote wrote:
real life wrote:
agrote wrote:
Okay. My solution: there is no God. Laughing
Hi Agrote,

Not exactly original, or the product of much effort on your part, I see. Well ....... I don't want you to strain yourself or anything like that.

But since you like math, you might consider how 1+1+1= 3, but 1x1x1=1 .

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

That probably qualifies with some as trinitarianism, and others as not trinitarian enough. But it is what the Bible teaches.

BTW, Neologist, I don't remember my making any reference to hell. Can you refresh my memory?


I don't like maths, I like logic.

The bible teaches that F = God, JC = God, and HS = God. This entails that F = JC = HS, since identity is a transitive relationship. If Maggie is the fastest athlete in the world, and the fastest athlete in the world is the author of a book called 'blah di blah,' then Maggie is the author of a book called 'blah di blah.' Rubbish example I know, but it'll do. So if F = God, and JC = God, then F = JC. If JC = the one who died for our sins, then F = the one who died for our sins, since JC = F. But do trinitarians really believe that the Father died for our sins? I think not. So their beliefs are illogical


The Bible doesn't say they are the same, it says they are One. Being one and being the same is not the same thing, which is why your logic is flawed. Just because they are one in essence, it doesn't follow that they are identical in every way. Obviously they are distinct in some manner, but still they are all part of the fullness of God.
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