45
   

If Jesus is God, how is he called God's only begotten son?

 
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 08:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
So wait, it isn't even a fact that family heredity exists? The one with an issue with facts is you. Let's assume for a second that we aren't talking about a virgin birth. Let's look at Mary's genealogy.

Quote:
When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi, of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph, of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Hesli, of Naggai, of Maath, of Mattathias, of Semein, of Josech, of Joda, of Joanan, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shealtiel, of Neri, of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er, of Joshua, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi, of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim, of Melea, of Menna, of Mattatha, of Nathan, of David, of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahshon, of Amminadab, the son of Admin, of Ram, of Hezron, of Perez, of Judah, of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Terah, of Nahor, of Serug,of Reu, of Peleg, of Heber, of Shelah, of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech, of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Mahalaleel, of Cainan, of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.


You see, the Gospel of Luke, by definition, tells us that we are all Son (or Daughter) of God. No fabulous miracle involved, just flat out genealogy, based on the notion that we are related to Adam.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 09:28 am
@bulmabriefs144,
All the trapping of the Bible and nothing biblical about it.

"This is my Beloved Son, of whom I am well pleased."

You don't need to tease a conclusion when G*D the Father says it explicitly.

4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Baptism of Jesus

(Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:29-34)

13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

See that: yet another explicit reference to the Trinity? An added bonus for something else you get wrong.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 09:31 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


So wait, it isn't even a fact that family heredity exists? The one with an issue with facts is you. Let's assume for a second that we aren't talking about a virgin birth. Let's look at Mary's genealogy.

Quote:
When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi, of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph, of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Hesli, of Naggai, of Maath, of Mattathias, of Semein, of Josech, of Joda, of Joanan, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shealtiel, of Neri, of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er, of Joshua, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi, of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim, of Melea, of Menna, of Mattatha, of Nathan, of David, of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahshon, of Amminadab, the son of Admin, of Ram, of Hezron, of Perez, of Judah, of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Terah, of Nahor, of Serug,of Reu, of Peleg, of Heber, of Shelah, of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech, of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Mahalaleel, of Cainan, of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.


You see, the Gospel of Luke, by definition, tells us that we are all Son (or Daughter) of God. No fabulous miracle involved, just flat out genealogy, based on the notion that we are related to Adam.


But it does not give that "genealogy" in ANY of the Harry Potter books...which are just as reliable when it comes to "facts" of that sort as that Bible you keep quoting.

You cannot use the Bible as a source for "facts" of this sort just because you blindly guess it is "the word of your god."

Are you really too dense to understand that?

Leadfoot
 
  2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 10:09 am
@bobsal u1553115,
What amazes me is that those words can be logically interpreted the opposite way as well as 'Trinity'.

The crux of the argument rests on the precise intended meaning of 'Begotten' Son.

I have no absolute attachment to either interpretation, but the Trinity just doesn’t pop right out of the text for me.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 10:25 am
@Leadfoot,
Is that Greek?
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 10:47 am
@Leadfoot,
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 11:16 am
@bobsal u1553115,
So?

If we are all sons and daughters of God through Adam, then if God is truly pleased with us, he is perfectly willing to do the same here.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 11:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
So you've decided to read Harry Potter and compare it to the Bible? You're hoping I'll rise to same sort of bait and call it satanic or something. Nah, byt neither is it relevant.

I don't care about gillyweed or about how Ron wants to be prefect.

Somehow the life story of about 5000+ years of Jewish history under the framework of their relationship to God is relevant as someone going to Gringott's bank and getting a Horcrux. Good to know that's where your spiritual knowledge is at. I'll be sure to really dumb some posts down so you can understand them.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 12:06 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

So you've decided to read Harry Potter and compare it to the Bible? You're hoping I'll rise to same sort of bait and call it satanic or something. Nah, byt neither is it relevant.

I don't care about gillyweed or about how Ron wants to be prefect.

Somehow the life story of about 5000+ years of Jewish history under the framework of their relationship to God is relevant as someone going to Gringott's bank and getting a Horcrux. Good to know that's where your spiritual knowledge is at. I'll be sure to really dumb some posts down so you can understand them.


You are a master at dumbing down posts, Bulma. My guess is you do not have to work very hard to do it.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 12:35 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Are you saying that God is just patting himself on the back here?

To me, the question being decided is whether God's Son was an independent free agent or not.

That scripture suggests to me that he IS.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 02:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I try my best to be understood.

It is a shame, indeed. You still don't understand.

Let's talk about this intellectual laziness you call blind guessing. As in, "I can't be bothered to study anything real about religion because it's all blind guessing." So, we don't need to study philosophy because those guys like Descartes never really knew anything (toss philosophy books in the trash)? And why bother learning history, since the North and the South have different version of events for Civil War, and likewise about UK and US versions of American Revolution? And there are different versions of English, like UK, Canadian, Australian, and even that in India so mostly blind guesses? Why bother learning science either, since scientists gwt proven wrong? And why do math, since there are different bases like base 16 or base 2?
If we take your theory to its logical limit, you are someone who can't do math, can't speak or read English, doesn't know history, and has no grasp of religious myths and legends. Ignorance.

Prove me wrong then. Write a page thesis about Amaterasu, starting with the myth and ending with its symbolic significance. Even if you don't believe in a religion, having an absence of knowledge of myths and legends means you also lose those fable stories and their significance.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 02:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
God made us in his image, but designed us as free agents.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 02:17 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
You finally got something exactly right. That's also the correct answer to your question, "if Christ saved us, why is there a hell? Because we have the free will to accept or reject Christ's Grace.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 02:21 pm
@Leadfoot,
Maybe. So what?

But what he was proclaiming was that Christ was fulfilling the pact that G*d made to us: to ;find a way for us to get right with G*D in spite of our inability to meet our end of G*D's covenant with us.

And bu the way: we are all free agents. Each of us has to make up out own minds.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Fri 19 Nov, 2021 11:48 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Wrong answer.

We do have free will. But nothing can separate us from God's love INCLUDING us. This is something Christians (including the people who wrote the Bible) don't understand. And yes, I am implying I know better than them.

There are two reasons why I hold this view.
1. Firstly, implying that something can separate us from God is to imply hubris, the idea that something is more powerful than God. Not the Mark of the Beast (scandal that it is), not rejection of Jesus, not rejection of grace, not even being one of those dirty Muslims, or being a miserable leader like Hitler can separate us from God's love.
1b. Now, such people will be punished, and sometimes this involves getting tossed into a lake of fire. But even destruction is not irreversible for a God that can do anything.
2. Second, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is when we condemn God, Jesus, or the like saying they will act this way according to what we think SHOULD happen. But it isn't only humans who have free will. God can freely decide whether to reward or punish us. Saying that God only extends grace to people who do this, this, and that is constraining God to laws. But God wrote the law. If God wants to change the law he can just say to Jews, "you will now eat pork." God is not subject to the law, the law is subject to God. This is why God can extend grace with no conditions. None, even the acceptance of grace. Jesus could say "Frank Apisa, I'm giving you grace and letting you enter Heaven." And Frank would say, " We are all just blind guessing and I am not sure such a place exists. " But God would show it anyway. And he'd still say something about blind guessing.

So in conclusion, nothing (aside from God's own decision) can separate us from God's love. But you say, we have rejected grace. So what?

While we have free will and our choices are respected, there isn't really a means of removing grace, short of destroying body and spirit. The soul is immortal so it just makes a new one around itself. But this does neatly destroy the person who doesn't wanna see God or encounter grace.

Even if we reject grace today, God is like a lover who has been jilted yet still wants to be with their loved one. Maybe they can't even look each other in the eye. So she goes and meets someone almost exactly the same. When grace is rejected, we are snuffed, and a new person (made from the ashes) is offered. Our free will matters (sorta) but nothing we can do can really separate us from God. We can however create misery for ourselves by deluding ourselves into thinking this though.
https://stomson2001.wordpress.com/2021/07/28/have-you-bought-into-the-great-delusion-of-the-end-times/
Delusions convince of things that are not so.

Like, that we have ruined things and there is no going back. Or that we are basically good and keeping people safe, when we are really putting them under house arrest and making their lives miserable. Or that grace is earned, and we can reject it. Or that our leaders are looking out for our safety, when they have ever been wicked tenants. Or that we can be separated from God's love, when we are told we cannot. There are many many delusions, but all of them stem from a confused mind that believes the world and not the truth that God gives us. "Follow the science." Science came from our brains. Our brains came from centuries of intelligent design (this is what genetics is, a code, programming us towards a goal). Real science uses the best of what we have developed into. Reason. Logic. The ability to question.
"Science" appears to involve behaving like dumb herd animals, complete with muzzles that they put on themselves. This "science" is by definition an illusion. God has already given us sound science that contradicts this.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 20 Nov, 2021 06:02 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I try my best to be understood.


You do not succeed.

Quote:
It is a shame, indeed. You still don't understand.


The shame is all yours.


Quote:
Let's talk about this intellectual laziness you call blind guessing.


No better person to do it than you. You are both intellectually lazy...and you do more blind guessing than most.


Quote:
As in, "I can't be bothered to study anything real about religion because it's all blind guessing."


That is a quote you are apparently attributing to me. I have never said it. I have studied more about religion than most.

Why do you make this **** up?


Quote:
So, we don't need to study philosophy because those guys like Descartes never really knew anything (toss philosophy books in the trash)? And why bother learning history, since the North and the South have different version of events for Civil War, and likewise about UK and US versions of American Revolution? And there are different versions of English, like UK, Canadian, Australian, and even that in India so mostly blind guesses? Why bother learning science either, since scientists gwt proven wrong? And why do math, since there are different bases like base 16 or base 2?
If we take your theory to its logical limit, you are someone who can't do math, can't speak or read English, doesn't know history, and has no grasp of religious myths and legends. Ignorance.


You are one of the most ignorant people I discuss with. I do not stop discussing things with you because you are ignorant...or because you are nuts.

I AM ALMOST THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO GIVES YOU OR YOUR COMMENTS ANY TIME AT ALL.

So what is your problem?

Quote:
Prove me wrong then. Write a page thesis about Amaterasu, starting with the myth and ending with its symbolic significance. Even if you don't believe in a religion, having an absence of knowledge of myths and legends means you also lose those fable stories and their significance.


No. I write on the topics I choose...not the topics you choose.
Leadfoot
 
  -2  
Sat 20 Nov, 2021 06:26 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
Maybe. So what?

But what he was proclaiming was that Christ was fulfilling the pact that G*d made to us: to ;find a way for us to get right with G*D in spite of our inability to meet our end of G*D's covenant with us.

And bu the way: we are all free agents. Each of us has to make up out own minds.

So what?

So because I was made a creature of reason and free will, it causes me a certain cognitive dissonance when someone or some religion says: 'Christ IS God'. I have to reason that out in my own mind before I can go on in my spiritual journey. Either they are right or the Bible is deliberately misleading us.

I cannot reason out any way that the scriptures are saying that is literally true. If I accepted it as true, then I would be forced to explain why both God and Christ lied to Peter where Christ told him that God had revealed to Peter that Christ was the Son of God.

The most painful part of explaining the contradiction would be to accept that Christ was just a sock puppet and the love God showed us by giving his only begotten Son for us, was just a sham. It would again make God a liar to see it that way. I could not follow a God who lied to me. Free will, Logic, God and the text all tell me he has not lied and that I can see how they all agree.

TL/DR: So what? Because It seems like a question that needs answering if we are serious about God and Christ.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sat 20 Nov, 2021 07:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
I am quoting your apparent thoughts, which you repeat endlessly.

Now you're raising your voice. Did I strike a nerve?

You will write on this, or children everywhere will mock you. I will tell them that you didn't even know about Amaterasu, and they'll be like, "Ahahaha, that guy doesn't even know about Amaterasu." This is a totally realistic reaction from groups of kids, they clearly won't say " Who the hell is Amaterasu? "
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Sat 20 Nov, 2021 08:01 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I am quoting your apparent thoughts, which you repeat endlessly.


You are NOT quoting my "apparent thoughts." You are quoting your distorted opinion of my thoughts...opinions distorted by your relative lack of intelligence and your questionable mental condition.

Quote:
Now you're raising your voice. Did I strike a nerve?


I laugh my ass off each time I respond to you. If you need to think you have struck a nerve...do so. I am happy with anything that makes that miserable life you are leading more tolerable.

Quote:
You will write on this, or children everywhere will mock you. I will tell them that you didn't even know about Amaterasu, and they'll be like, "Ahahaha, that guy doesn't even know about Amaterasu." This is a totally realistic reaction from groups of kids, they clearly won't say " Who the hell is Amaterasu? "


If it makes that miserable life you are leading any more tolerable to suppose this kind of ****...go for it. Go ahead. Tell the other kids in the sandbox all that...and when they laugh at me...join in. It will help your mental health, Bulma.

I'm on your side on this.

https://c.tenor.com/zqHbKTg9NxEAAAAM/ray-liotta-laughing.gif

theMadOne
 
  -1  
Sat 20 Nov, 2021 10:32 am
Is anyone going to answer the topic question?????
 

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