13
   

Kids in cages; how does anyone defend this

 
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:31 am
@layman,
We disagree on the facts, but let me ask you about the moral principle .

If it was perfectly legal for the DHS to provide human family detention space where families could be kept together (as I claim it is), would you support keeping kids with their parents throughout the process?

I would like Lash and Oralloy to answer this question. It is important.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:36 am
@maxdancona,
My work in community mental health has required my presence on the scene at some arrests. I know first-hand what I’m talking about.

My fiduciary responsibilities as an educator force me to make reports about parents who may be a threat to their children. I’ve had to make those calls. One student came to me and asked me to make that call, and she was removed from the home that day.

I’m in a unique position to speak to the facts surrounding this issue. You just don’t like these facts.

Let’s change gears:

Do we know what most of these people are fleeing from? Why the massive crowds headed this way?
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:37 am
@maxdancona,
And when will you stop beating your wife?
Silly little last line, Max.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:39 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


People arrested are promptly given bail hearings where the needs of children are considered. Children are considered in sentencing hearings.

In every stage of law enforcement accommodations are made for families with children.

The DHS under the Trump policy is the lone example where reasonable accommodations that would save children from trauma are denied.


If you support this policy of cruelty to children, do it honestly.


You have absolutely NO standing to talk about honesty, Max. All your irrelevant chatter about "accomodations" for children has already been addressed and is just as dishonest as every other claim you've made here. No "accomodations" have ever, nor will they ever, require that the law refrain from prosecuting criminals because they have children.

As I stated--we are quite willing to "accomodate" parents who violate our laws. If they will agree to leave the country, and take their kids with them, we will let them go with a sentence only for "time served." We don't want to waste resources on housing these criminals, court hearings, etc. If they refuse this generous offer, then THEY are refusing to do what's "best for their kids," not us.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:42 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
If it was perfectly legal for the DHS to provide human family detention space where families could be kept together (as I claim it is), would you support keeping kids with their parents throughout the process?


Sure. And that could be easily done, but only by Congress, not Trump. They pass the laws, not him. He is just obligated to enforce them, that's all.

Your claim that it is presently legal is WRONG, and you should know it. Apologize for your false accusations, willya?

We DO keep refuge-seeking families together for as long as we legally can (20 days max), but after that, thanks to the left-wing ACLU, the kids gotta be shipped out.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:45 am
@Lash,
You are avoiding the question. Social service providers do what is best for the children. Is there ever a time in your professional life you did not follow this principle. Obviously there are times where children need to be removed from their parents for their own benefit. This is not one of those times.

The best thing for these children is to be housed in a humane family detention center, with their parents, while the legal process plays out.

You are arguing against the policy that is best for these children.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 07:50 am
@maxdancona,
No, I’m not. Your solution seems fine—unless adults use children in hostage situations—or some bad adults abuse other’s children.

Maybe your solution could be tweaked for increased safety.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 08:03 am
@Lash,
Thank you Lash. This is what I want.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 08:09 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Maybe your solution could be tweaked for increased safety.


Which is a very valid concern, Lash. Coyotes are paid large sums by families to illegally bring kids, who are not theirs, into the country. The coyotes will then stipulate to leave the country voluntarily, but leave the kids behind. The hope is that those kids will then serve as "anchor babies" and give the parents a means of getting into the country.

These kids are routinely abused, sexually and otherwise, by the people paid to bring them in. This is just one more reason for deterring people from sending their kids across the border.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 08:24 am
@layman,
If they survive the trip.

I remember a truckload of people left to die in a trailer truck in the parking lot of a Walmart in San Antonio last year. Who knows what else happens to those children.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 08:31 am
This crime they are breaking is a misdemeanor, like shoplifting.

I say we follow MLKs message and stop segregating ourselves based on our nationality, which is simply some birthright like being white used to be considered.

We are not some breed of special humans because we were born on one side of a border and those seeking to come here are not 3/5ths of a human.

Maybe all that is required is a bit of, I don't know, HUMANity.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 08:48 am
I just heard Kirstjen Nielsen say on video,

"Parents who enter illegally are by definition criminals."

Well, they as much criminals as someone going 20mph over the speed limit or someone trespassing at the Dakota Access Pipeline. Maybe we should start taking their children.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 09:51 am
@maporsche,
Interesting that DAP is one of your examples. The folks at DAP were treated quite differently from (mostly white) protesters at other events/sites.

I think there's very clearly a component of otherness/colour involved in this. I see it on FB and twitter. Darkened photos of some of the children/parents with comments like - what do you expect? some explicitly saying they don't want them because they're not white/European because white Europeans are by definition better.

There's a real fear of the ongoing change in the demographics of America. As the change moves into non-coastal/non-border areas, you see the anxiety/fear developing there.

0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 01:28 pm
@maxdancona,
I think Kars for Kids is far worse. Confused
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 03:37 pm
Kids in cages!!

Heh, every parent in this country puts their kids in cages to contain and protect them.

They're called cribs.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 03:42 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You, Layman and Oralloy all seem to be defending the policy of the Trump administration. The Trump administration is also defending the policy.
The term "defending" is a bit strong in my case. I just think it is a bit much for the Democrats to decry a policy that they could change by compromising with the President. The only reason why this policy continues is because the Democrats want to defeat and humiliate the President more than they want to help these children.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 03:43 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
If it was perfectly legal for the DHS to provide human family detention space where families could be kept together (as I claim it is), would you support keeping kids with their parents throughout the process?
I would like Lash and Oralloy to answer this question. It is important.
Yes, it it involves Democrats compromising with Trump on border security.

No, if it doesn't involve Democrats compromising with Trump on border security.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 03:45 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
3. The repeated insistence that Trump is just like Obama is ridiculous. Of that is true, than why did you hate Obama?
I do not have strong views on this subject at all. So certainly no hate.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 04:16 pm
Just in case it's not already clear, Max, I'll repost part of one that I just made in another thread.

Quote:
the decree allowed a maximum of 20 days. After that, the kids had to be shipped out to foster care, thereby "ripping the kids from their parents' arms." You can thank the left-wing ACLU for that little piece of "do-gooding," which has now been the law for over 20 years, eh?


I always somehow knew that the ACLU was "evil" and "barbaric," but I didn't know they were THIS bad.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2018 04:21 pm
@oralloy,
Exactly what do you think one should for forced to "sacrifice" to end this "zero tolerance policy" that Trump enacted? What is a fair political price for keeping kids from being traumatized by being separated unecessarily from their parents.

If you want to end a policy that is hurting kids, it is going to cost you... Is that really what you are saying?

I will point out that it isn't Democrats who are shaming the president. The list of conservatives who are condemning this policy now include Laura Bush, Ben Stasse, Ralph Reed, Franklin Graham... the list keeps growing.



If Trump is humiliated, is it too much to ask for him to man up and take responsibility for his policy. Everyone is picking on the poor leader of the Free world ... treating Trump as a victim is silly.
 

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