@layman,
We will see how that $25 billion wall goes over in Congress.
The question is the moral sense of the American public. It is the American public that is hindering Trump in his efforts to enforce a hard line policy on immigration. This is the way that it should be, Trump is not king. He represents Americans and is accountable to our beliefs and values.
When these stories and photos of crying kids came out, Trump changed his tune. The American public was outraged. He really had no choice.
Trump is kind of in a difficult situation. People like Layman are demanding he stop migrants from coming, but whatever he does is either expensive, or it offends the moral sense of a large proportion of Americans like me.
There is no simple answer here. You either treat these migrants with respect as human beings, or you face the backlash from the American public. Detaining them is expensive, shooting them is unacceptable, shipping them out with no legal process is itself illegal, letting them go while they await a court hearing pisses off the base.
Trump has chosen a path that doesn't make sense.... it is both expensive and unacceptable to the American public. It wasn't a very smart move.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:...whatever he does is either expensive, or it offends the moral sense of a large proportion of Americans like me. letting them go while they await a court hearing pisses off the base...it is...unacceptable to the American public.
There ya go again, eh, Max? Purporting to speak for the "American public," even when you know they are strongly against your position.
Give it up, homeboy.
Catch and release aint never comin back.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:Detaining them is expensive, shooting them is unacceptable
Don't count on it. Enough guff from your "Abolish ICE; no borders, no nation" ilk, and congress will pass a law authorizing the use of lethal force to prevent invaders from crossing our borders illegally.
There are enough volunteers from Texas alone to set up machine-gun nests every 100 feet along the border.
@layman,
Quote:There ya go again, eh, Max? Purporting to speak for the "American public," even when you know they are strongly against your position.
The American public (note the lack of quotes because I am talking about the actual American public) spoke for themselves. They spoke with outrage, they spoke through polls and they spoke they spoke to their representatives.
I am not purporting to speak for anyone. Trump was spanked by public opinion. And he bucked.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Trump was spanked by public opinion. And he bucked.
And that is all the left really cares about. They don't care about the immigrants or the children. As long as "Trump was spanked".
@McGentrix,
You are being ridiculous McG. I have made my position clear. I think the zero tolerance policy is barbaric.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You are being ridiculous McG. I have made my position clear. I think the zero tolerance policy is barbaric.
Then why write that tripe?
@McGentrix,
I am responding to Layman's ridiculous bluster. It is clear that the majority of Americans had a problem with the Trump policy.
Obviously this is a complicated issue. I have acknowledged that Americans have often conflicting opinions when it comes to immigration.
I've also posted this on before, but maybe it was in another thread:
Quote: Poll: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Trump’s Position on Immigration, Compared With Obama’s ‘Catch-and-Release’ Policy
Only 19 percent of the American people support the Democrat position,” said Rep. Raul Labrador, R-Idaho, citing a new Economist/YouGov poll. “Catch and release” is the controversial practice where illegal immigrants are released from custody and told to show up to a court hearing at a designated later date. But Republicans contend that the vast majority do not appear for their hearings, which usually occur three to five years later.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/06/22/poll-americans-overwhelmingly-support-trumps-position-on-immigration-compared-with-obamas-catch-and-release-policy/
Unlike you, Max, the public wants these intruders DETAINED, not released, as you do. They would also like to see families detained together, until deported, but that's that what Trump undertook to do on his own with his EO anyway, since congress refused to act, so quit bitching.
@maxdancona,
I already said that, Max, remember?
I wrote:They would also like to see families detained together, until deported, but that's that what Trump undertook to do on his own with his EO anyway, since congress refused to act, so quit bitching.
.
But other polls give differing results that yours. In the one I cited 12% said they wanted the adults kept in prison, did not want their children in there with them. 8% actually said they they wanted children of rational age to ALSO be charged with crimes, and also kept in criminal detention centers ("jails"). However they did not want those minors to be kept in the same jails as their parents. They believed that a juvenile detention center was more appropriate.
Either way, they felt children should be separated from their parents, and that totals 20%. That does not leave 88% to believe otherwise.
The poll I cited (the "Economist/YouGov pol"), is a respected one with a reputation for a high degree of accuracy. It is often relied upon by congressmen and other government officials, btw.
The problem with your post Max, is that, due to Trump's EO, these children are being re-united with their parents and no longer separated. Even if criminally charged, adults with children are no longer being detained in adult jails, but rather in immigrant detention centers with their children.
The "no borders, no nations" anarchist mobs who are attempting to shut down ICE processing facilities across the country are stopping this process. Scheduled cases are not be heard, and are rescheduled for the next available hearing date.
The problem is, the judges' schedules have already been set, in advance. The result is that the cancelled cases cannot be heard for another 6 weeks or so.
The result is that they will they may be separated from their for an additional six weeks.
You can thank the mobs for that, if you want, but don't try to blame Trump. I say you can thank them, because they help you argue that some (manufactured) "crisis" exists that you can bitch about. That's all the mob cares about too. They don't give a **** about the children--they are prolonging their separation from their parents, but that's cool with them. They just want "no nations," i.e., the destruction of the U.S. as a sovereign country, like all anarchists do.
The counter-factual spin you try to put on everything gets tedious, Max.
@layman,
You do realize that Trump is a grown man... and that he is the leader of the free world?
Politics is tough, I don't know why you people insist on babying Trump. He made a pretty stupid political mistake, and now his approval rating has fallen and he is taking some flack from political opponents.
That's life. He needs to put on his big boy pants now.
@layman,
layman wrote:
8% actually said they they wanted children of rational age to ALSO be charged with crimes, and also kept in criminal detention centers ("jails"). However they did not want those minors to be kept in the same jails as their parents. They believed that a juvenile detention center was more appropriate.
This makes sense. In this country a 16 year old who accompanies his father on a killing spree is not exonerated because he was only "going along with what his dad wanted him to do"
@layman,
I don't see how crossing a border has anything to do with going on a killing spree. But I accept that you think they are similar.
And what about a 3 year old... would you find them guilty for accompanying their father on your hypothetical killing spree?
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You do realize that Trump is a grown man... and that he is the leader of the free world?
Politics is tough, I don't know why you people insist on babying Trump. He made a pretty stupid political mistake, and now his approval rating has fallen and he is taking some flack from political opponents.
That's life. He needs to put on his big boy pants now.
Sure, Max. But once again you expose your true agenda here. This thread is not really about "the children."
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I don't see how crossing a border has anything to do with going on a killing spree. But I accept that you think they are similar.
And what about a 3 year old... would you find them guilty for accompanying their father on your hypothetical killing spree?
1. Read it again, Max. The post said "of rational age."
2. They are similar in that they are both crimes. But the penalties are vastly different, as they should be, so they're not "similar" in that respect at all, no. Change the alleged crime to misdemeanor theft if you want. The point is the same and just as valid either way. Juveniles who are caught shop-lifting are subject to criminal presecution, whether they're doing it along side their parents or not. A 16-year-old MS-13 gang member who busts in illegally is commiting a crime, even if his parents are nowhere in sight.
