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Is abortion only the womans right to choose?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 09:18 pm
I won't fret, I'll use it to say, or reiterate, how pleased I am by your joining a2k, a couple of hundred posts ago. I am not as apt myself on argumentation, I get too emotional, but I have a pretty good eye for those who can argue well, on many sides of issues.
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Eryemil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 09:50 pm
It is not that women should have more right to decide than men, that shouldn't be. But most of the time a guy doesn't want to decide, they opt for running away while the girl has to deal with all the consequences by herself, even is she does decide to get an abortion.

Most men don't want children, at least not when they are young, (they are smart, unlike me) neither do most women for that matter. I just see it as unfair for guys to tell woman that they have to give birth to a baby they don't want. I understand that if they don't want the baby, it can be given up for adoption, but how many of those children grow up in the system without ever knowing what parental love is?

Oh, there are also the situations where the girl get's pregnant just too keep a guy around. When are you ladies going to learn that that just doesn't work most of the time? That'd be something to tell your child; "I had you because I wanted your daddy to stay with me".
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 09:14 am
Eryemil wrote:
I just see it as unfair for guys to tell woman that they have to give birth to a baby they don't want.


I agree.

At the same time, it's equally as one-sided if the woman just decides on her own to keep/abort the baby.

Therefore, like I've been saying, I believe the man should consult the woman on his opinions, the woman do the same with the man, and they actually talk about it. Not make rash decisions without the help of the other. I.E.: The man has rights, too.

Hey AntiBuddha - Wanna join me? VHEMT
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Crazielady420
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 10:28 am
I see it as, two people have sex, they no the consequences, they talk about children before they do have sex and decide, "well what do you think about abortion" If you want to sign a damn contract stating your opinion....

THEN if it does happen, you both have already put your input in and came to an agreement before hand... if further discussion is needed, so be it... but at least you both no what you want....

It takes two to tango... therefore both responsible.... but respect that it is the womans body and if you truely don't want a child but she doesn't want an abortion make up a legal contract between the two of you, so you can't be responible (if that is possible)

All I know is a male is entitled to his opinion but unfortunately he can't make the final decision....

SO men when you start having the babies, the choice is all yours! :-)
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 11:00 am
illegal contract
Crazielady420 wrote:
. . .

It takes two to tango... therefore both responsible.... but respect that it is the womans body and if you truely don't want a child but she doesn't want an abortion make up a legal contract between the two of you, so you can't be responible (if that is possible)



A child has a right to be supported by BOTH parents. The parents are not allowed to contract away the child's right to support. Any contract that provides otherwise is legally unenforceable.

Whenever two people have sex, they do so with the knowledge and understanding that a pregnancy is possible even if protection is used. Birth control is not 100 percent effective.

If they are careless or their choice of birth control fails and conception takes place, the consequences are KNOWN. It is the woman's choice whether to terminate or continue the pregnancy. If the woman chooses to continue the pregnancy and give birth, the man has parental rights and duties. It's that simple and that complex.
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Crazielady420
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 11:11 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Crazielady420 wrote:
. . .

It takes two to tango... therefore both responsible.... but respect that it is the womans body and if you truely don't want a child but she doesn't want an abortion make up a legal contract between the two of you, so you can't be responible (if that is possible)



A child has a right to be supported by BOTH parents. The parents are not allowed to contract away the child's right to support. Any contract that provides otherwise is legally unenforceable.

Whenever two people have sex, they do so with the knowledge and understanding that a pregnancy is possible even if protection is used. Birth control is not 100 percent effective.

If they are careless or their choice of birth control fails and conception takes place, the consequences are KNOWN. It is the woman's choice whether to terminate or continue the pregnancy. If the woman chooses to continue the pregnancy and give birth, the man has parental rights and duties. It's that simple and that complex.
thus the reason is for me saying if possible, I know it is not possible but if it was then go for it..... I never said it wasn't the womans choice... but I am saying the man should be able to voice his opinion... it may not change anything but let the man speak!!
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:51 pm
Every situation is different
Every situation is different. Perhaps the man and woman involved can have a rational discussion over the situation, but I doubt it. The issue of abortion is too emotionally charged when the people involved disagree.
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Eryemil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 03:01 am
That's exactly what I mean Debra, most guys are not willing to find common ground. I do think that the man should be able to state his opinion, but beyond that, if an acceptance is not reached, it's the womans choice; and the man should shut up about it.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 10:14 am
There is no such thing as "common ground" when the people involved disagree.

The original question asks whether abortion is only the woman's right to choose. The answer is YES. This is a right that belongs exclusively to the woman.

A man does not have the right to choose. He does not have the right to exercise dominion and control over the woman's physical and emotional well-being. However, many men simply do not "shut up" about the woman's decision. Many men are unwilling to support the woman's decision if they disagree with the decision. Some will resort to exercising undue influence and inflicting emotional distress upon the woman. It's abusive.

A man should not have any rights concerning the decision to continue or terminate a pregnancy -- He should not have any rights that are recognized or enforceable by law.
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Eryemil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 10:25 am
Did I say otherwise? You are taking this too personal. I actually agreed with you and you kept on going.
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 11:07 am
Debra_Law wrote:
A man does not have the right to choose. He does not have the right to exercise dominion and control over the woman's physical and emotional well-being. However, many men simply do not "shut up" about the woman's decision.


..and some women will not "shut up" about how righteous they are Rolling Eyes

You do realize that absolutely no one in this thread has said that a man has the right to chose, don't you?

There has only been those of us who believe that it's selfish for either the man or woman to make a solid decision themselves, alone. It's a mutual discussion that needs to take into account both sides of the table.

Why are you being so incredibly uptight?
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 11:07 am
Double post.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 11:25 am
It is simply a woman's decision.

An individual woman may choose to involve her partner in discussion around this decision, but it is the woman's decision.

No one else's.







Of course, in an ideal world every woman would be in a relationship where she would be comfortable having a discussion about her decision whether or not to continue with a pregnancy - but it is her choice.
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 11:27 am
If someone is not in a relationship where they can't speak to their partner, then I don't exactly feel sympathy for them continueing it long enough to become pregnant :wink:
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 11:38 am
I don't often say this, but you must be quite young and idealistic, Sanctuary.

It's sort of nice, and terrifying, to see.

I hope that you will learn to have empathy for your fellow travellers in this life.
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 02:03 pm
Young? Quite.

Idealistic? Sometimes. Aren't we all? But my post above was more realistic, IMO. Why stay in a relationship with someone if you can not communicate? We've all done it, I know - better aspects of them, love, you don't want to be alone, don't want to hurt them, you're not confrontational, you don't want to disrupt the peace..etc, etc. But does that mean it's deserving of sympathy? Of course not. Nor does it recieve mine.

Now, dear Beth, how the idea of getting out of an unhappy/satasfying situation is idealistic.. I'm not sure, but I am welcome to being enlightened.
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theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:30 pm
Sanctuary wrote:
Hey AntiBuddha - Wanna join me?


Too late my friend. Too late by far.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 04:34 pm
Re: Is abortion only the womans right to choose?
phoebe_bubbles wrote:
I don't really want to go into the rights and wrongs of abortion itself here, but should the right to choose be granted to men too?


A man (a lawyer) made this same argument and sued to be relieved of his parental duty of support because he was denied the right to choose . . . .


Quote:
Plaintiff makes a kind of “fairness” or “reciprocity” argument. His basic claim is that the mother of the child “fraudulently induced” sexual intercourse, claiming that her birth control pills would prevent pregnancy, then left the state, married another man, and delayed seeking child support for several years after birth.

The plaintiff argues that the Kentucky paternity and child support laws are inconsistent with sexual and procreative “privacy” rights recognized by the Supreme Court, e.g., Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S.
479 (1965); Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973); Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52 (1976); Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992).

The right to procreative privacy, he argues, “includes the right to decide not to become a parent even after conception,” and “must extend to both biological parents,” so that “Kentucky’s statutory scheme” must be
invalidated because it “imposes parenthood on biological fathers while denying them any right or opportunity to decide not to become a parent after conception.” (Appellant’s Reply Brief, p. 3.)2 His “fairness” argument seems to be that he should receive this constitutional right in exchange for the woman’s right to abort her pregnancy.



N.E. v. Hedges, et al.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/036680p.pdf

The court ruled:

Quote:
Neither the laws of biological reproduction nor the Due Process Clause recognize the “fairness” arguments plaintiff raises. Reproduction and child support requirements occur without regard to the male’s wishes or his emotional attachment to his offspring.
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 05:59 pm
Of course the man doesn't have the right to choose whether or not the woman has an abortion, but neither should the woman have the right to make a choice that will affect the next eighteen years of the man's life (despite the legal fiction enforced by one unenlightened court).

Both parties are responsible for contraception. What what would seem to be a more just system is that the woman retains the right to make the choices that affect her body, and if she chooses an abortion, then the man is required to pay half the costs. If the man, however, wants the woman to have an abortion and the woman refuses, then he should have the option to waive his parental rights and not be saddled with eighteen years of child-support payments. In this case, he would still be liable for half the cost of an abortion, and by waiving his rights he would be barred from having any contact with the product of that conception.

It is right and proper that a person be the absolute ruler over her or his body, but it is not right that a woman should be able to make a decision that will affect the next eighteen years of her sexual partner's life. Let's face it, eighteen years is a steep, steep penalty for three to eight hours of mutual pleasure (Okay, three to eight hours in my case, two to twenty minutes in the case of most other men Laughing ); the woman can choose whether to impose that sentence on herself, but why should she have the authority to impose that sentence on somebody else?
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theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 08:30 pm
Mills75 wrote:
(Okay, three to eight hours in my case, two to twenty minutes in the case of most other men Laughing )


Don't you get bored? I find that after an hour the lack of mental stimulation makes me anxious to get it over and done with, then again maybe I just have a short attention span.
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