Is abortion only the womans right to choose?

SCoates wrote:

CalamityJane wrote:
SCoates wrote:
In Oklahoma men are required to pass a character test before they're allowed to father children.

How does this work? Every 15/16 year old who lives in Oklahoma
is given such a test?

15 and 16 yearolds can't get married, silly.

That's true, but they're able to father a child. Mostly the question
of pro/con abortion doesn't arise in married couples, does it?

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Misti26 wrote:

The male had his opportunity to voice his opinion on this issue as well as to choose to use birth control, but didn't. Now, he impregnates the female and suddenly he has the right to tell her what to do with her body?

Nada! He should have realized the consequences before he decided to think with the wrong head.

This is the typical feministesque type ideals and mindset that have me this (I'm holding my thumb and fore-finger a hair's width apart, you just can't see it :wink: ) close to completely despisng my own species (females).

You'd be surprised at how many women are also against certain types of birth control. I sure as hell don't prefer condoms, and for personal reasons, it's impossible for me at this time to get on the pill. And so I don't see how any of that is the man's fault, in any sense.

If a woman spreads her legs, then she is taking just as much responsibility for whatever consequences may come.

I promise you, as hard as it may be to imagine, not every case is the victim-vs.-beast. Not all men "tell" the women what to do in this case, and not all women are so excruciatingly forced in to having unprotected sex.

Good lord, get off the women-are-high-and-mighty train already Rolling Eyes

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uh oh...

<runs away to avoid being on third locked thread of the day>

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You're entitled to your opinion, however archaic it is, and I'm entitled to mine!

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Misti26 wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion, however archaic it is, and I'm entitled to mine!

I am intentionally archaic in my thinking on this issues, as I despise the new feminist movements. So, thank you.

And I agree, we're both entitled - however I do disagree that men are always at fault, and are always the evil-doers.

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Sanctuary wrote:

If a woman spreads her legs, then she is taking just as much responsibility for whatever consequences may come.

You're so right Sactuary, that's why a woman is taking responsibility
of the consequences. She decides in all instances: to spread her leg,
to use protection (or not) and to get pregnant or have an abortion.

This has nothing to do with woman's lib, it is a choice over her own
body.

Yet, I would allow a trade off: No to abortion. Yes to vasectomy!

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Good Idea

CalamityJane wrote:

Yet, I would allow a trade off: No to abortion. Yes to vasectomy!

Good Idea, CalamityJane. Our "democratic" society could pass laws requiring all boys to be snipped as soon as they reach sexual maturity. Prior to being snipped, however, they would be required to deposit a jug of sperm in a state-owned repository for future use.

Wives or girlfriends would not have access to their husband's/boyfriend's sperm for insemination without the man's consent. Men could finally be in charge of procreation!

Majority rules! All in favor, say "aye!"

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Wo. Looks like I entered at the wrong time. Just popped in to say, the woman should make the ultimate decision. It's nice if she and the father should agree, but the man must accept her will in the matter no matter what.

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Misti26 wrote:

The male had his opportunity to voice his opinion on this issue as well as to choose to use birth control, but didn't.

Hypothetical situation, couple decides to not have children yet. After discussion the woman decides that she will go on the pill so they don't have to worry about contraceptives. Suddenly the woman decides that she wants a child so without consultation "forgets" to take the pill.

If you think this is an imaginary situation I'd advise you to check out the various parenting boards on the internet. There are frequently entire threads and even topics devoted to women talking about their decision to use this technique.

....
Reason #41054 I'm glad I've opted out of reproduction.
....

Sanctuary wrote:

If a woman spreads her legs, then she is taking just as much responsibility for whatever consequences may come....however I do disagree that men are always at fault, and are always the evil-doers.

What? A woman accepting responsibility for her own actions. Never, a man must somehow be at blame, you're just not searching hard enough to find a way to blame him Wink

(Note: Parody of feminist rhetoric, not actual opinion)

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theantibuddha wrote:

What? A woman accepting responsibility for her own actions. Never, a man must somehow be at blame, you're just not searching hard enough to find a way to blame him (Note: Parody of feminist rhetoric, not actual opinion)

You're beautiful.

It seems to be that way now days, doesn't it?

Quote:

You're so right Sactuary, that's why a woman is taking responsibility
of the consequences. She decides in all instances: to spread her leg,
to use protection (or not) and to get pregnant or have an abortion.

This has nothing to do with woman's lib, it is a choice over her own
body.

Yet, I would allow a trade off: No to abortion. Yes to vasectomy!

Again - that attitude...

No. That's not how it works. You're putting women in the throne again; why is it different? Just because she actually carries the kid? Well no matter how empowering it is to be able to pop something out of you, it would be completely impossible without sperm. Artificial sperm, someone else's sperm - whatever - it's still impossible. A woman, by herself, is incapable of reproducing without the help of a man. And that, in my opinion, is exactly why men have just as much decision.

I am not saying men get to chose for the woman. I am saying that the woman shouldn't just run right straight to the Abortion clinic as soon as she finds out she's preggers, without even consolting/informing her partner. That's beyond selfish, it's sick.

And I also don't think men should be forced to get vasectomies. Again, just another cop out for the women who rely on this whole 'I have more say than you because I actually carry the kid' trip most of you seem to be on.

And to end this segment of my debate, I leave you with a comedy sketch I adore:

Quote:

Childbirth is no more a miracle then eating food and a turd coming out of your ass... Did you know that everytime a guy cums, he cums 200 million sperm, did you know that?... You know what that means? That means I have wiped entire civilizations off of my chest with a gray gym sock. Now THAT is special. Entire nations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel! THAT is special! And I want you to think about that, you women with the two egg carrying, holier than thou 'We have the gift of life'.....attitude. I have tossed universes....in my underpants....while NAPPING!

-Bob Willis

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Re: Good Idea

Debra_Law wrote:

Good Idea, CalamityJane. Our "democratic" society could pass laws requiring all boys to be snipped as soon as they reach sexual maturity. Prior to being snipped, however, they would be required to deposit a jug of sperm in a state-owned repository for future use.

Wives or girlfriends would not have access to their husband's/boyfriend's sperm for insemination without the man's consent. Men could finally be in charge of procreation!

Majority rules! All in favor, say "aye!"

Yeah, great idea but I have another. Let's remove the clitoris from all women at sexual maturity. That way since they won't enjoy sex any more they'll only ever have it for reproduction and every baby will be wanted.

What? Why is everyone looking at me like that? It's logical.

Razz

Think about that next time you're so cavalier about suggesting gender-based enforced mutilation Wink

...

"In the gender-war just think of me as Switzerland. I want no part, I'll just hold onto your wallets while you people fight" - Me.

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I think someone needs to realize that Debra and I were
not seriously considering to impose a vasectomy on every
living creature with a penis.

Well, that joke with giving birth is equal to eating and releasing a turd is a typical male analogy. But since you like it so much
Sanctuary and obviously can identify with it, I'll explain you
why it is a bad joke: You eat 3 x a day and after digesting
the food you take a crap and flush it down the toilet. This making a
connection to child birth is beyond my comprehension,
but then again, I don't even want to go down that road of yours.

You are right in your assumption that without sperm there
won't be a fertilized egg. However, there ends the important part for most men in the process of pregnancy. Once
the egg is fertilized, it is in the possession of the woman
and until child birth it is she who decides what will happen.

That is also the reason why no pregnant woman can be
prosecuted when she smokes and drinks during pregnancy,
one can only appeal to her right senses, but ultimately
it is her body.

This has nothing to do with womens movement or overpowering men, it is the simple right to choose over your
own body.

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Re: Good Idea

theantibuddha wrote:

Yeah, great idea but I have another. Let's remove the clitoris from all women at sexual maturity. That way since they won't enjoy sex any more they'll only ever have it for reproduction and every baby will be wanted.

What? Why is everyone looking at me like that? It's logical.

Actually theanti, it doesn't make sense nor is it logical.
We're speaking of contraception methods, reproduction vs. abortion,
and nowhere would your suggestion of sexual mutilation be part
of it.

Having a vasectomy is a permanent contraception method, where
the semen tubes are cauterized, blocked off or completely removed.
A vasectomy will not inhibit a man's pleasure for sex nor will it
affect his abilities to perform.

Sexual mutilation on young women will not only inflict excruciating
pain during sex, it also will lead to infections and other complications.

So yes, everyone should be looking at you. It is not logical!

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Re: Good Idea

Quote:

I think someone

Someone... someone... hmmmm, wonder who that could be. Ooooh, pick me. Pick me!

Quote:

needs to realize that Debra and I were not seriously considering to impose a vasectomy on every living creature with a penis.

No, just the humans. You may not have been actually proposing it, but I doubt that you appreciate just how repellent a suggestion it would be, were it seriously proposed. Involuntary surgery be it harmless or not is quite a horrific sugestion. My inversing and then exagerated the situation (note: exagerating), while attempting to keep it in context, was intended to get that point across to you.

I doubt I succeeded.

CalamityJane wrote:

Actually theanti, it doesn't make sense nor is it logical. We're speaking of contraception methods

Yes... Abstention IS a method of contraceptive and female genital mutilation would cause abstention. A leads to B leads to C.

Quote:

Having a vasectomy is a permanent contraception method, where
the semen tubes are cauterized, blocked off or completely removed.

*watches the men in the room cross their legs*

Quote:

A vasectomy will not inhibit a man's pleasure for sex nor will it
affect his abilities to perform.

Ah, and that makes involuntary surgery okay. Noted.

Quote:

Sexual mutilation on young women will not only inflict excruciating
pain during sex, it also will lead to infections and other complications.

A link has been suggested (though studies continue) between vasectomies and increased risk of atherosclerosis, heart disease, lung cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and multiple myeloma. The macrophages used to destroy the sperm that is now forced to remain within the testes causes an increased immunological response that MAY have risks of autoimmune problems.

Also vasectomies are not universally effective. In 1/1000 cases the vans deferens spontaneously regenerates. Also doctors occasionally do not spot that the man has a third vans deferens. For 3 months after the procedure it is only 95-97% effective.

The mortality rate of vasectomies is only one in a million... sure that sounds fine until you realise that worldwide it's roughly 2000 deaths if they were given to all men.

Quote:

So yes, everyone should be looking at you. It is not logical!

That you are incapable of noting the logic is not my concern.

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If it weren't about over-powering men or women's lib, then you'd be able to see that it's still the man's baby aswell - wether it's growing in you, your grandmother, or the tree in your backyard. Abortion is not about what happens to someone's body for Christ's sake, it's for the benefit of the child. I would hope that someone wouldn't merely avoid an abortion when the situation is not the preferred for a child, merely because she doesn't want to do that to her body. So again, I render your defenses completely irrellevent to my views.

I am convinced that when a man and a woman make a child together, then it is the decision of the man and the woman on how to handle the situation.

If someone is not going to consider the other person's emotions/desires in the decision, then I think they should take on the reponsibility themselves to avoid getting pregnant in the first place. Should they fail to do this, I.E., they get pregnant, then I think the partner has every right to state his say.

As far as vvasectomies go - they may not lower the sensation, but it's not fair. If a woman isn't willing to take BC/feminine condom/other methods - then why should a man have to sacrafice a perfectly natural and IMO, enjoyable part of orgasm? Again, both parties need to take responsibility; but I don't think that either males or females should undergo surgical procedures merely because they're too lazy to handle it responsibly.

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Sanctuary wrote:

merely because she doesn't want to do that to her body.

What? You mean... do something in the interests of a child with a 50% chance of being male when her own comfort is at stake? never Wink

Quote:

then it is the decision of the man and the woman on how to handle the situation.

What? Actually have a discussion with your partner? Relate to them? Sounds dangerous, people might think you're friends Wink

Sanctuary wrote:

why should a man have to sacrafice a perfectly natural and IMO, enjoyable part of orgasm?

Sorry... <devil's advocate> After a vasectomy the man still ejaculates, the semen merely contains no sperm</devil's advocate>

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Is that so?

Not what I was taught in sex-ed. Those bastards.

Ejaculate or not, it's still injust to make a man -or a woman- go under the knife for lack of sensibility with protection.

Thanks for the info :wink:

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Sanctuary wrote:

Is that so?

Not what I was taught in sex-ed. Those bastards.

Lol, you thought I actually knew all that stuff I wrote in my previous article already? I spent a very boring five minutes researching as much info on vasectomy as I needed to actually make a point about it. One of those sources said you still ejaculate but it's not like I'm an expert.

"With google, everyone's an expert". - The ad campaign I'm marketing to google for several million dollars. Shhh, don't tell anyone.

Either way I don't actually care. Anyone coming near my balls with a scalpel will receive that scalpel lodged in their pancreas. I have zero chance of reproducing already I don't need some guy in pyjamas with a medical degree stuffed up his ass tinkering with my finely tuned inner workings.

Quote:

Ejaculate or not, it's still injust to make a man -or a woman- go under the knife for lack of sensibility with protection.

Agreed.

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No one has to go under a knife! Have you ever heard of an IUD. It's the safest form of birth control there is.

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Montana wrote:

No one has to go under a knife! Have you ever heard of an IUD. It's the safest form of birth control there is.

Heard of, yes. Know anything about, no.

However that sounds good and gets my vote.

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Is abortion only the womans right to choose?

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