Christian Democrats?

The Jimmy Carter / Faith issue was only his breaking away from the Southern Baptists.

October 23, 2000

Jimmy Carter says he can
'no longer be associated' with the SBC
___By Greg Warner
___Associated Baptist Press
___ATLANTA (ABP)--Former President Jimmy Carter, Southern Baptists' most famous layman, says he feels "excluded" by the Southern Baptist Convention and "can no longer be associated" with the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
___As a candidate in 1976 who introduced the term "born again" into the political lexicon, as a president who was criticized for witnessing to world leaders, as a goodwill ambassador through his work with Habitat for Humanity and as a Sunday school teacher at his small church in Plains, Ga., Carter has been one of the most visible and respected Southern Baptists for 25 years.
___But in a letter and press statement released Oct. 19, Carter lamented the new "creedal" direction taken by the SBC. He said the recent changes in the Baptist Faith & Message doctrinal statement are "profound and revolutionary" and reflect "an increasingly rigid SBC creed."
___"I had never been involved in the political struggle for control of the SBC and have no desire to do so," Carter wrote in the letter, which was mailed to 75,000 Baptists nationwide by the moderate group Texas Baptists Committed. He said he was disappointed that his effort two years ago to promote dialogue between SBC factions failed. "My hope was that, as a traditional Baptist layman, I could find some channel through which I could help fulfill our Christian commitments.
___"But since that brief interlude of apparent harmony, I have been disappointed and feel excluded by the adoption of policies and an increasingly rigid SBC creed, including some provisions that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith. I have finally decided that, after 65 years, I can no longer be associated with the Southern Baptist Convention."
___"This is a torturous decision to make," Carter added in an interview. "I do it with anguish and not with any pleasure." Carter, 76, said he could no longer "add my name and my support" to SBC efforts because its leaders "have departed from what I believe."
___He decided to go public with his decision after meeting, at his initiation, with moderate Baptist leaders from Texas, Virginia and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
___"This is strictly personal for me," he told ABP. "I am not trying to speak for my church. I'm not going to mount a crusade against anybody. We've had enough of that."
___He said he will remain a deacon and Sunday school teacher at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains and support the church's recent decision to send half of its missions contributions to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
___In his press release, Carter said he and his wife, Rosalynn, want to associate with "other traditional Baptists who continue to share such beliefs as separation of church and state, servanthood and not domination of pastors, local church autonomy, a free religious press and equality of women."

Baptist Standard

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Einherjar wrote:

Cannister, if with this thread you were trying to determine the religious makeup of the democratic party, you would be better served by making a poll asking: "for Democrats only, are you Christian". Tallying wiews versus yes replies wont do since the site counts one wiew each time a person wiews the page. Besides, there are other people than democrats that frequent this site.

We have covered that before.

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Thank you squinney

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Lash wrote:

(Did know about the political party CDs in Europe.) (I thought the Social Democrats were in larger Europe and the Christrian Dems were a British party...?)

Nah (dunno if this was answered already, only got to page 2 of this thread yet):

In Britain, there's no Christian Democrats, just Conservatives vs. Labour with the Liberal Democrats in the middle.

But in many mainland European countries the Christian-Democrats are a large party. Eg, they've tradionally been the largest or second largest party in Germany, Holland, Belgium and Italy until the 90s. (In Italy, after the self-destruction of the old Christian Democrats and their replacement by Berlusconi's Forza Italia, the CD's have split into various groups, some of which now belong to the Forza-led right-wing coalition while others have joined the left-wing alliances.)

In Scandinavia, Christian-Democrats are smaller, in the shadow of a larger Conservative party. In the post-communist countries setting up CD parties has been a mixed effort - the Czech, Slovak and Slovene ones have been influential, but mostly they've either been in the shadow or merged into a Conservative party or coalition.

In the EU, the Christian-Democrat group was always one of the two dominant groups, alongside the Social-Democrats. Over the past decade, they took the controversial decision to allow Berlusconi's Forza Italia and other Conservative parties into the group and now they're clearly the largest in the European Parliament.

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McGentrix wrote:

Also, you hardly hear any liberals complaining about abortion, slander of christianity or other major issues. They seem to choose party over religion.

Just like you dont seem to hear much about conservatives complaining of the death penalty or poverty ...

Take Catholics. The pope is as clear about the death penalty as he is about abortion. Yet conservative Catholics in America cherry-pick the abortion issue and ignore the death penalty one, then claim only they live according to the religious tenets.

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squinney wrote:

The Jimmy Carter / Faith issue was only his breaking away from the Southern Baptists.

October 23, 2000

Jimmy Carter says he can
'no longer be associated' with the SBC
___By Greg Warner
___Associated Baptist Press
___ATLANTA (ABP)--Former President Jimmy Carter, Southern Baptists' most famous layman, says he feels "excluded" by the Southern Baptist Convention and "can no longer be associated" with the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
___As a candidate in 1976 who introduced the term "born again" into the political lexicon, as a president who was criticized for witnessing to world leaders, as a goodwill ambassador through his work with Habitat for Humanity and as a Sunday school teacher at his small church in Plains, Ga., Carter has been one of the most visible and respected Southern Baptists for 25 years.
___But in a letter and press statement released Oct. 19, Carter lamented the new "creedal" direction taken by the SBC. He said the recent changes in the Baptist Faith & Message doctrinal statement are "profound and revolutionary" and reflect "an increasingly rigid SBC creed."
___"I had never been involved in the political struggle for control of the SBC and have no desire to do so," Carter wrote in the letter, which was mailed to 75,000 Baptists nationwide by the moderate group Texas Baptists Committed. He said he was disappointed that his effort two years ago to promote dialogue between SBC factions failed. "My hope was that, as a traditional Baptist layman, I could find some channel through which I could help fulfill our Christian commitments.
___"But since that brief interlude of apparent harmony, I have been disappointed and feel excluded by the adoption of policies and an increasingly rigid SBC creed, including some provisions that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith. I have finally decided that, after 65 years, I can no longer be associated with the Southern Baptist Convention."
___"This is a torturous decision to make," Carter added in an interview. "I do it with anguish and not with any pleasure." Carter, 76, said he could no longer "add my name and my support" to SBC efforts because its leaders "have departed from what I believe."
___He decided to go public with his decision after meeting, at his initiation, with moderate Baptist leaders from Texas, Virginia and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
___"This is strictly personal for me," he told ABP. "I am not trying to speak for my church. I'm not going to mount a crusade against anybody. We've had enough of that."
___He said he will remain a deacon and Sunday school teacher at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains and support the church's recent decision to send half of its missions contributions to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
___In his press release, Carter said he and his wife, Rosalynn, want to associate with "other traditional Baptists who continue to share such beliefs as separation of church and state, servanthood and not domination of pastors, local church autonomy, a free religious press and equality of women."

Baptist Standard

Has the SBC changed that much or has Carter? Not a smart-alec question just wondering.

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nimh wrote:

Take Catholics. The pope is as clear about the death penalty as he is about abortion. Yet conservative Catholics in America cherry-pick the abortion issue and ignore the death penalty one, then claim only they live according to the religious tenets.

Well, take e.g the Evangelical Church of Germany: clearly against death penalty, partly against abortion (actually, the Evangelical Church of Westphalia - one of the greatest* in Germany with nearly 3 million members in - runs a couple of [pro-]abortion information offices).
*Evangelical churches here have a regional structure.

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cannistershot--

In reference to your question about which changed: Carter or the SBC-- I think the answer is both.

Carter was anti-abortion when he ran for President in 1976--and has changed that opinion. But, the SBC has become almost like the Inquisition in forcing all manner of pledges of loyalty from missionaries recieving their funds. It is considered quite an oppressive change, and many socially liberal Christians are leaving it for the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

I guess Carter went a little left and the SBC has taken quite a rightward turn.

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Thank you Lash.

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Nimh writes:

Quote:

Take Catholics. The pope is as clear about the death penalty as he is about abortion. Yet conservative Catholics in America cherry-pick the abortion issue and ignore the death penalty one, then claim only they live according to the religious tenets.

It's a no brainer actually. American Catholics largely respect the office of Pope and love John Paul, but the vast majority do not look to him as their spiritual leader in all matters nor do they consider it necessary to blindly follow every Papal decree. So widespread is this gentle rebellion, I will not be surprised if the American Church does not break with Rome in my lifetime. So far as 'cherry picking' the abortion issue, this is neither a Catholic thing nor necessarily a liberal thing. Both Protestants and Catholics and both conservatives and liberals believe the unborn baby is a human life and to kill it for convenience is wrong. Many who oppose abortion except for the narrowest criteria also support the death penalty also within the narrowest criteria. There is no conflict as abortion kills the completely innocent while the death penalty should be reserved for those proved guilty of the most heinous crimes.

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I will not be surprised if the American Church does not break with Rome in my lifetime

A little confused; you would be surprised if they did break in your lifetime?

I wouldn't, for the record. Catholicism has a lot of problems to work out in the next century.

Cycloptichorn

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Correct. I put an extra negative in there. It should read: "I would not be suprirsed if the American Catholics broke with Rome in my lifetime."

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I think the Catholic bishops should be ashamed of themselves for supporting the American conservative agenda...no matter their rationale.

Jesus stood for everything they abhor...and abhored many of the things they honor.

This truly is a world turned upside down.

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I think Jesus would not have condoned abortion nor do I think he would have opposed the death penalty in certain circumstances. He was a pretty nonpartisan guy actually and operated on common sense rather than polity with any group.

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I don't neccessarily aggree with this article, neither do I endorse it, but it has bearing on this discussion.
______________________________________________________________

A Christian Can Be a Christian or a Liberal, But He Can't Be Both

Can a Christian be a liberal? Short answer: no. There is no way a Christian can buy into neo-liberal ideology and be faithful to the bigger-than-Dallas teachings of the scripture and expect to continue enjoying his hard-won religious liberties.

For the "Christian" to lean politically to the left means that he must blow off huge chunks of the Bible and replace the scripture with the make-believe notions of postmodernism's malleable "Christ." Only after torturing the scripture can the Christian then fit liberalism into his supposed relationship with God.

For the Christian who believes that unfeigned faith in Christ should correspond with Jesus' high view of scripture, it is now impossible to believe in God and be an adherent to postmodern liberalism.

The twain no longer meet. Liberalism has been hijacked by bizarre special-interest thugs who spit on the Word of God and believe that the Bible has no place in public life, (except maybe in a museum where people can look at it from time to time).

The Christian who has a bent to the liberal left needs to understand something: while he is skipping around the maypole with his rose-colored glasses on, if it were up to the modern, secularized liberal establishment, he would be more restricted than Bill when Hillary's in town. Yes, if the Christophobic thugs had it their way, Christians would be relegated to a marginalized spiritual ghetto on the sidelines of life.

For the naïve Christian voter who thinks he can toss a ballot in the Nuevo liberal direction, please know that a vote toward the secular left could leave you bereft of sacred liberties. Thanks to the aggressive ludicrous liberal lug nuts' anti-Christian agenda, your vote for a liberal, Christian, is a vote for

1. Christianity to be scrubbed from government and whatever turf the government owns. Thanks to the liberals, the Ten Commandments have about as much acceptance in our government and their properties as Rush Limbaugh would at Al Franken's family reunion. Yes, the Judeo-Christian principles that formed the rock-solid foundation of this great American Experiment are now aggressively fought against by the lascivious left.

If if the secularists continue to stay behind the wheel of this American bus, you can kiss all semblance of Christianity good-bye in this heretofore God-graced government. Saint, you might as well say farewell to our government's recognizing Christmas and adios to Good Friday if you're going to vote the liberal ticket. If the secularists have it their way, Easter will be behind your keister, and you can kiss the Cross good-night as an acceptable public symbol that represents your faith and our nation's recognition of Christ's atoning work.

2. Secularism to be continually mainlined into our public school system. Thanks to rabid vapid secularism, our public schools and universities would rather you be a Rocky Horror super freak than a Christian. If your beliefs run to the bizarre or the banal, or if you want to smoke the same philosophical crack that Caligula, Nero, Castro or Lenin freebased, they'll accommodate you.
Our schools are totally open to anyone and to anything, unless, of course, you're a Christian. And if that's the case, then you're likely to get more sympathy from a badger with minimal sleep than you will from liberal educators who are hard at work making your life hard. A vote for the secular left is a vote for Christianity to continue to
be officially vilified on campus and Christians to be ostracized in campus life.

3. Public officials, employees and appointees to be pressured to hide their faith in the closet and suppress their public displays of belief in God lest they be grouped with Hitler, Osama, or Mussolini and then fired. Not only will the liberals aggressively work to prohibit the State from green lighting and recognizing Christianity as a legitimate and positive force in our land, they will also attempt to stifle Christians from influencing the path of government.

4. Public attacks on churches and Christians and attempts to restrict them in the private sector. Consider this, Christian pastor and Christian lay person looking to vote for the ludicrous left: the secular Mafioso's intent is to make your ministerial life difficult, your evangelistic work taxing and your voice minimized. And good luck, pastor and church committee, in trying to buy property and get zoning with the anti-Christian libs at the helm.

5. The continued media endorsement of the same putrid hedonistic stuff that sunk ancient Rome. Yes, with the liberals in place, expect more weird crap in movies and on television. Expect to see more paintings of Christian symbols/ saints smeared with elephant dung. Expect Christianity to be bashed and vilified and Christians made out to be buckled-shoed morons with three teeth and an IQ of 50. Expect the culture to coarsen. Expect your kids to continue to be exposed to things that only rock stars see backstage with groupies. A vote for a liberal is a vote to see Christians continue to receive special ridicule and be flogged more than a piñata during a Cinco de Mayo festival.

My ClashPoint is this: Modern liberalism tosses the scripture out on several different levels. How a true believer in the Christ defined by the scripture can buy into what Jesus, the prophets and apostles said and also what these secular thugs say is beyond me. In addition to liberalism's obvious and odious pro-holocaust-like abortion stance, its anti-biblical view of marriage, its scripture-slamming aggressive secularism, and its feckless view of our nation's defense, liberalism completely clashes with the Christian worldview. Secular liberalism's aggressive desire to eradicate Christians' rights should cause Christians to be concerned.

The Democratic Party's liberalism has degenerated over the last 40-50 years in regard to its view of Christianity and Christian rights. This party, which formerly embraced and protected our nation's great Christian heritage and teachings, no longer does so. Thus, today the Christian is between a rock and a hard place: he can either be a Christian or a liberal, but he cannot be both.

link

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That was a terrible article, lacking both logic and consistency. But the crux of the problem is summed up nicely here:

Quote:

Modern liberalism tosses the scripture out on several different levels.

Absolutely. Modern, liberal Christians do not believe in strict adherence to scripture, especially when through transalation said scripture is arguably very different than when it was written.

That doesn't mean they aren't Christian. This writer is basically saying that anyone who isn't a fundementalist isn't Christian... just another wacko.

Cycloptichorn

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McG posted:

Quote:

Can a Christian be a liberal? Short answer: no. There is no way a Christian can buy into neo-liberal ideology and be faithful to the bigger-than-Dallas teachings of the scripture and expect to continue enjoying his hard-won religious liberties. (excerpted)

I disagree. I know many Christians who fit every definition of liberal in both its classic and modern sense. They don't belong to the radical Christian-bashing, I-hate-everybody-but-me, far left wing, but neither do they adhere to the status quo or much that is traditional. In some ways I am a liberal Christian myself.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I think Jesus would not have condoned abortion...

This is a very self-serving statement.

If Jesus would not have condoned abortion...or if he would have condemned it...it seems to me that he would have.

But he didn't...and that is all we have to go on.

Quote:

...nor do I think he would have opposed the death penalty in certain circumstances.

Nor do I...but so what?

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McGentrix wrote:

I don't neccessarily aggree with this article, neither do I endorse it, but it has bearing on this discussion.
______________________________________________________________

A Christian Can Be a Christian or a Liberal, But He Can't Be Both

Can a Christian be a liberal? Short answer: no. There is no way a Christian can buy into neo-liberal ideology and be faithful to the bigger-than-Dallas teachings of the scripture and expect to continue enjoying his hard-won religious liberties.

For the "Christian" to lean politically to the left means that he must blow off huge chunks of the Bible and replace the scripture with the make-believe notions of postmodernism's malleable "Christ." Only after torturing the scripture can the Christian then fit liberalism into his supposed relationship with God.

For the Christian who believes that unfeigned faith in Christ should correspond with Jesus' high view of scripture, it is now impossible to believe in God and be an adherent to postmodern liberalism.

The twain no longer meet. Liberalism has been hijacked by bizarre special-interest thugs who spit on the Word of God and believe that the Bible has no place in public life, (except maybe in a museum where people can look at it from time to time).

The Christian who has a bent to the liberal left needs to understand something: while he is skipping around the maypole with his rose-colored glasses on, if it were up to the modern, secularized liberal establishment, he would be more restricted than Bill when Hillary's in town. Yes, if the Christophobic thugs had it their way, Christians would be relegated to a marginalized spiritual ghetto on the sidelines of life.

For the naïve Christian voter who thinks he can toss a ballot in the Nuevo liberal direction, please know that a vote toward the secular left could leave you bereft of sacred liberties. Thanks to the aggressive ludicrous liberal lug nuts' anti-Christian agenda, your vote for a liberal, Christian, is a vote for

1. Christianity to be scrubbed from government and whatever turf the government owns. Thanks to the liberals, the Ten Commandments have about as much acceptance in our government and their properties as Rush Limbaugh would at Al Franken's family reunion. Yes, the Judeo-Christian principles that formed the rock-solid foundation of this great American Experiment are now aggressively fought against by the lascivious left.

If if the secularists continue to stay behind the wheel of this American bus, you can kiss all semblance of Christianity good-bye in this heretofore God-graced government. Saint, you might as well say farewell to our government's recognizing Christmas and adios to Good Friday if you're going to vote the liberal ticket. If the secularists have it their way, Easter will be behind your keister, and you can kiss the Cross good-night as an acceptable public symbol that represents your faith and our nation's recognition of Christ's atoning work.

2. Secularism to be continually mainlined into our public school system. Thanks to rabid vapid secularism, our public schools and universities would rather you be a Rocky Horror super freak than a Christian. If your beliefs run to the bizarre or the banal, or if you want to smoke the same philosophical crack that Caligula, Nero, Castro or Lenin freebased, they'll accommodate you.
Our schools are totally open to anyone and to anything, unless, of course, you're a Christian. And if that's the case, then you're likely to get more sympathy from a badger with minimal sleep than you will from liberal educators who are hard at work making your life hard. A vote for the secular left is a vote for Christianity to continue to
be officially vilified on campus and Christians to be ostracized in campus life.

3. Public officials, employees and appointees to be pressured to hide their faith in the closet and suppress their public displays of belief in God lest they be grouped with Hitler, Osama, or Mussolini and then fired. Not only will the liberals aggressively work to prohibit the State from green lighting and recognizing Christianity as a legitimate and positive force in our land, they will also attempt to stifle Christians from influencing the path of government.

4. Public attacks on churches and Christians and attempts to restrict them in the private sector. Consider this, Christian pastor and Christian lay person looking to vote for the ludicrous left: the secular Mafioso's intent is to make your ministerial life difficult, your evangelistic work taxing and your voice minimized. And good luck, pastor and church committee, in trying to buy property and get zoning with the anti-Christian libs at the helm.

5. The continued media endorsement of the same putrid hedonistic stuff that sunk ancient Rome. Yes, with the liberals in place, expect more weird crap in movies and on television. Expect to see more paintings of Christian symbols/ saints smeared with elephant dung. Expect Christianity to be bashed and vilified and Christians made out to be buckled-shoed morons with three teeth and an IQ of 50. Expect the culture to coarsen. Expect your kids to continue to be exposed to things that only rock stars see backstage with groupies. A vote for a liberal is a vote to see Christians continue to receive special ridicule and be flogged more than a piñata during a Cinco de Mayo festival.

My ClashPoint is this: Modern liberalism tosses the scripture out on several different levels. How a true believer in the Christ defined by the scripture can buy into what Jesus, the prophets and apostles said and also what these secular thugs say is beyond me. In addition to liberalism's obvious and odious pro-holocaust-like abortion stance, its anti-biblical view of marriage, its scripture-slamming aggressive secularism, and its feckless view of our nation's defense, liberalism completely clashes with the Christian worldview. Secular liberalism's aggressive desire to eradicate Christians' rights should cause Christians to be concerned.

The Democratic Party's liberalism has degenerated over the last 40-50 years in regard to its view of Christianity and Christian rights. This party, which formerly embraced and protected our nation's great Christian heritage and teachings, no longer does so. Thus, today the Christian is between a rock and a hard place: he can either be a Christian or a liberal, but he cannot be both.

link

McG...I thank you for presenting this article in this thread.

It is one of the dumbest articles on this issue I've ever read...and is wrong on damn near every point.

In fact, the exact opposite case could be made...that a person can be a Christian or a person can be an American conservative...but not both unless the person is willing to be an obvious hypocrite.

We can certainly discuss this if it is not obvious to you...or anyone else.

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Frank, I think if there had been abortion in his time on earth, Jesus would have condemned it. There is simply nothing in the record in which he condoned or approved of anything that would harm the children, and there is simply nothing to suggest that he discounted the Jewish belief that life begins at conception and that the unborn child is a spiritual being.

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Christian Democrats?

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