Christian Democrats?

There's nothing to support the idea that the ancient Jews believed that 'life begins at conception.' They didn't even think in such terms.

You are using modern concepts to explain ancient beliefs by a man who may or may not even have existed.... this conversation has gotten waaaay out there.

Both sides can say 'you're not a good Christian if you don't agree with me.' And it's stupid when both of them do it.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre wrote:

Frank, I think if there had been abortion in his time on earth, Jesus would have condemned it. There is simply nothing in the record in which he condoned or approved of anything that would harm the children, and there is simply nothing to suggest that he discounted the Jewish belief that life begins at conception and that the unborn child is a spiritual being.

If? it most certainly existed millenia ago. Check out some medical history sites.

It does seem interesting that while it existed, the person known as Jesus does not seem to have commented on it. Not so much that he didn't condone or approve - didn't comment one way or the other. Gotta wonder what that means.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Frank, I think if there had been abortion in his time on earth, Jesus would have condemned it.

C'mon Fox, think before you post.

Abortionist is the second oldest profession on this planet...occassioned, in large part, by the first.

Hippocrates...who lived in the same area as Jesus at approximately the same time (maybe 200 years earlier) certainly knew about abortion...and disapproved of it. In fact, he wrote a prohibition against providing abortions in his famous oath.

It is almost certain that Jesus knew about abortion...and it is almost certain that he did not think enough of it to condemn it. Fact is, as far as we know, he did not utter a single word about it.

Quote:

There is simply nothing in the record in which he condoned or approved of anything that would harm the children, and there is simply nothing to suggest that he discounted the Jewish belief that life begins at conception and that the unborn child is a spiritual being.

Do you have help making this stuff up...or do you do it independently?

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Foxfyre wrote:

Frank, I think if there had been abortion in his time on earth, Jesus would have condemned it. There is simply nothing in the record in which he condoned or approved of anything that would harm the children, and there is simply nothing to suggest that he discounted the Jewish belief that life begins at conception and that the unborn child is a spiritual being.

Though I don't know if it went on during Jesus's time and place, herbal abortions have been around for a very very very very long time. But these things would have been very private and known only between women and their midwives.

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What is it that would make you think for even a minute that Jesus would condone abortion?

No religion, that I know of, endorses or approves of abortion.

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I'm not sure I would say that Jesus would condone abortion. BUt he certainly would have been merciful toward women. Children are a gift under certain circumstances, but there are many other circumstances under which they would not be viewed as a gift. At least not by the woman bearing them.

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In the past, few women were allowed to make such a choice for themselves.

I am sure Blatham could help us understand drom a historical perspective.

Maybe if I rub this lamp....

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Maybe McG, but in the past women often were responsible for their own and each others medical care -- especially with regard to childbirth. It's completely conceivable to me that men would not be consulted at all.

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Quote:

In the past, few women were allowed to make such a choice for themselves.

Um, no. In the past, many men simply were not informed their wives were pregnant in the first place...

Cycloptichorn

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There is a great deal of research in this area, easily accessible through the net if you're willing to do the reading. Assyria is a 'good' place to start.

( a friend's daughter is a medical anthropologist, amazing what info is out there on this sort of topic )

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McGentrix wrote:

What is it that would make you think for even a minute that Jesus would condone abortion?

The fact that he did not condemn it!

Now let me ask you:

What is it that would make you think for even a minute that Jesus would NOT condone it?

And what is it that would make you think for even a minute that if Jesus felt that there was something wrong with a woman's right to choose to end a pregnancy...that he would not have mentioned it?

Quote:

No religion, that I know of, endorses or approves of abortion.

Really!

Isn't that something!

Are you saying that all religious people...and all religions now extant...specifically condemn abortion as a choice? (Careful!)

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Personally, I veer from anything and anyone that presumes to know the mind of God. Given the Trinity, I would include not knowing the mind and will of Jesus.

As a Christian I believe it is not my position to judge others transgressions, nor do I care to be judged by any of you. I have no doubt that God will sort it all out when He's good and ready, so it isn't necessary for us to debate what Jesus might or might not want for someone else. We'd be much better served figuring out what He wants for ourselves, and let everyone else worry about what He wants them to do or not do.

When did Christians forget that Sunday School lesson?

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http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=975166#975166

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McGentrix wrote:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=975166#975166

Okay...you pointed out that you were wrong on this issue before...just as you are wrong on it now.

That is damn decent of you, McG.

But what is your point?

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My point is to discuss it there, not in the politics forum.

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Speaking of Christian Democrats:

http://mnl_1221.tripod.com/kerrybush.html

http://www.christiansforkerryedwards.org/index.php?id=1

http://christians4kerry.objectis.net/

http://www.publicchristian.com/

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McGentrix wrote:

My point is to discuss it there, not in the politics forum.

I get your point, McG...and I appreciate it.

But it was raised in this thread...and it is germane to the issue.

I've posted over in your new thread....but I consider this unnecessary micro-managing of this thread.

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McGentrix seems to have a habit of thread micromanagement, especially when it's one that he started.

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The Jewish belief is that those God anointed as his special spokespersons or for special duty or for special prophesy were frequently so anointed within the womb. Check out the old testament stories yourself. In the Infancy narratives in the New Testament, written mostly by Jews for Jews, we have the spirit filling/affecting the unborn child destined for special duty in both the case of John the Baptist and Jesus.

Jesus Himself is reported in the New Testament to call the children to himself and to confer special damnation on any who would harm them. I do not believe abortion was known, much less condoned or widely practiced, in first century Jerusalem or Judea or Samaria or Galilee. Had it been, it almost certainly would have merited a mention at some point in the ancient texts.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I do not believe abortion was known, much less condoned or widely practiced, in first century Jerusalem or Judea or Samaria or Galilee.

That is one of the problems with "beliefs"...they often are wrong.

Abortion was known. As I pointed out, Hippocrates mentioned it in his oath.

Why don't you read it...and you will see.

Quote:

Had it been, it almost certainly would have merited a mention at some point in the ancient texts.

It was mentioned...as I have now pointed out to you on two occasions.

Try to deal with reality.

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