Why I'm a feminist.

@engineer,

Quote:

That is the way you typically use it. If you want to denigrate an idea without actually debating it, you yell that it is a feminist position implying that it is radical, man-hating, extremis

I am not sure whether I should take this personally or not. Is there an example where I have done this?

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

As I've said, I've not been around the feminists characterized by some men on a2k, a sort of an introduction to a giant gathering of harpies out to do men in. But I get it that some are probably doctrinaire.

Actually, who has been around these women? You would think that given the legions of "harpies out to do men in" running around, we would have met a few of them, wouldn't we? I've never met one myself. While I doubt they are completely mythical, I also think they are more of a construct made for political reasons than real people out to crush men's souls.

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@engineer,

Quote:

. It is an out to avoid actually discussing the issue. Slap the "feminism" label on something and people are much more likely to reject it without thought. "Feminism" is a code word like "liberal" or "socialist" that is meant to convey all things bad and shut down reasoning thought.

Interesting... being 180 degrees in disagreement might lead us both to the same conclusion.

I am happy to stop using the words "liberal" or "socialist" along with "feminism", and for the same reason. I tend to have liberal ideas... but I also take care to look at each idea on its own merit and part ways with traditional liberal thought fairly often.

You wouldn't see me defending a similar 38 point "Why I'm a liberal" thread. And you certainly wouldn't see me launch personal attacks against people who question liberalism.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Is there an example where I have done this?

Every time you post "I'm for equal rights, I'm just against Feminism!" you are doing that. You are insinuating that feminism is not about equal rights even though every definition you will ever find disagrees. You are ascribing nebulous negative characteristics to feminism by saying "I'm for good stuff, not feminism." Want to slander someone's position without debating it? Say it is part of the "feminist agenda". Same as that ad I posted earlier, just 100 years later. Do you really think labeling something as feminist shuts down the opposition? It seems to me like the opposition would be the first to label it that way.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am happy to stop using the words "liberal" or "socialist" along with "feminism", and for the same reason.

Personally, I think that would be home run for you. Say "I support equal rights for everyone". Say "I support the rights of women to have a safe environment and to have their rape accusations taken seriously and I support the rights of men to have a fair trial and to be assumed innocent until proven guilty". Say "I support men and women taking charge and being responsible for their behavior." When you throw the buzzwords in, you derail your own argument. When you declare yourself "anti-feminist" with every post, you invite the debate you say you want avoid.

This thread and the 38 point manifesto came about in direct response to all the "anti-feminist" threads already on the board. It doesn't take much looking about to see that people throwing the feminist term around the most are almost always the "anti-feminists".

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@engineer,

That's an underhanded argument Engineer.

I have never said... I don't accept that position because it is a feminist position. In fact I accept and strongly support many traditionally feminist positions. Yet, it seems people here are willing to reject any idea that is "anti-feminist" even if it has merit.

My position is that the feminist movement, as it works practically in modern America, goes beyond equal rights to a narrative and sometimes policy that I am not comfortable saying. I am not "insinuating" this. I am stating this as my opinion. I am not "slandering" anyone's position, I am saying that in some cases the positions that are considered to be "feminist" are not supportable. Do you see what you did there? Disagreement is not slander.

And I am certainly not shutting down debate. I am more than happy to debate about equality and respect... anything you would like. I would like this debate to be open, and fact-base and respectful. The labels and narratives that go along with them get in the way of open-minded respectful debate on individual issues.

Discussions about policy and fairness should be had based on facts, not based on an ideological narrative connected to a label.

Yes, I am for equal rights and against feminism. I have no problem saying that.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Look at what happened in this thread. The initial 38 point post was emphatically labeled "feminism". People like Edgar, and Izzy and Setanta didn't question it at all. They all chimed in they agreed "completely". Anyone who dared to question the points respectfully was shot down with sometimes unprovoked personal attacks.

Posters who are trying to intimidate other posters on A2K? What else is new?

Quote:

This happens in real life too. Once something gets a "feminism" label there is political pressure not to challenge it. The racially tinged Hollaback video was defended tooth and nail when people pointed out the fact that only racial minorities were shown as harassers. Groups advocating for the rights of fathers to get equal custody of their kids are viciously attacked and have trouble getting press coverage. The list goes on.

I don't know much about the 'gender wars' in America, the 'rape culture' and all. I tend to agree that men should get organized and push back on certain issues, especially around issues related to long-term gender equality such as child care. God forbid that only women raise our kids... Smile

But we need to seek common ground with women on these issues and play a fair game, not muddle the debate with sterile semantics.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Yet, it seems people here are willing to reject any idea that is "anti-feminist" even if it has merit.

Ok, what are some examples of "anti-feminist" ideas that you want considered?

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@engineer,

How about the idea that boys are not rapists and that the vast majority of males will never rape? The practical policy side of this is to change the messages given to adolescence from telling boys they need to be restrained from raping to talking about responsible respectful relationships.

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@engineer,

I would add to that domestic violence restraining order reform. We should accept the reality that restraining orders are often abused, especially in the case of divorce, and reform the system so that it is fair to both parties.

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@maxdancona,

How are either of those "anti-feminist" positions? I'm good with both, I think most feminists would be as well. In the case of restraining orders, I think that comes directly out of the legal system and is a negotiating tactic, not something that has anything to do with equal rights for women. That doesn't mean that there aren't some feminists pushing those positions, only that I can't see how they are feminist positions.

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@maxdancona,

Interesting that you perceive that as an anti-feminist position.

I see it - particularly the messaging component - as being a core feminist position.

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@maxdancona,

You mention this very very very often - to the point that I now suspect it's got to do with something that has happened to you personally.

It's got nothing directly to do with feminism.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

How about the idea that boys are not rapists and that the vast majority of males will never rape?

Nobody has a problem with that. Just because some extremist says the opposite doesn't mean it suddenly becomes part of feminist ideology. You're complaining about something that for the most part does not exist.

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Woman speaks out against misogynistic abuse and is met with misogynistic abuse from men who believe misogynistic abuse doesn’t exist and that she should stop making them look bad.

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@TheSubliminalKid,

I would like to hear engineer's position on this too...

Does disagreeing with a woman constitute misogynistic abuse? Can a man disagree with a woman and still be a feminist?

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@TheSubliminalKid,

I am curious how old you are. If you are a teenager, then I might have been a little hard on you and people's instinctive defense of you even when your actions are out of line is understandable.

I am assuming you are of college age or higher. People aren't doing you any favor. Adults should be challenged when they are logically or factually incorrect. They are agreeing with you, even when you are clearly wrong, because of the position you are taking. You have attached the "feminist" label and then you have claimed you are facing "misogynistic abuse", and people are encouraging you even though factually there has been zero misogynistic abuse. It is laughable.

I will call out logical fallacies no matter who is spouting them. If I did not challenge you when you are clearly wrong (when I challenge anyone else), that would be misogyny.

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@maxdancona,

Interesting that the opinion you want to hear is from a man you appear to consider your social equivalent.

The rest of us really have to push to be heard by you.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Interesting that the opinion you want to hear is from a man you appear to consider your social equivalent.

The rest of us really have to push to be heard by you.

Hmm ehBeth... if I made a sarcastic comment like that, it would be considered a misogynistic attack, wouldn't it? I have answered everyone, including some people who were pretty harsh and got fairly personal, with reason. Engineer is one of the few people here who will discuss things reasonably. I value his point of view.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Kid wrote:

Woman speaks out against misogynistic abuse and is met with misogynistic abuse from men who believe misogynistic abuse doesn’t exist and that she should stop making them look bad.

maxdancona wrote:

I would like to hear engineer's position on this too...

Does disagreeing with a woman constitute misogynistic abuse? Can a man disagree with a woman and still be a feminist?

Of course not, but that is not what Kid is referring to. It's so common there is probably an Internet rule about it, but when a woman posts something about misogynistic abuse on the Internet, she will be met with a hailstorm of misogynistic abuse. The comments section will be filled with posts about her appearance and sexuality, rape threats and death threats. Does that come from all men? Of course not, just a small minority focused on silencing women who dare to speak out. Gamergate is the most recent case study.

Honest debate is fine. Here I should acknowledge that people on the Internet get testy regardless of gender and when the flames fly, the gender card gets played by both sides. I've seen both men and women get personal when debating on A2K and I think it is wrong.

1 Reply

Why I'm a feminist.

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