Why I'm a feminist.

My point, which has just been reinforced, is that a lot of the whiny boys around here think feminism is always about rape.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

RAINN (the most prominent anti-rape organization in the US) notes that the politics of the "rape culture" myth actually hamper their efforts to address the problem of rape on campuses.

True Max!

http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

I'd like to comment on a whole lot of things you've had to say in this thread, because I'm proud of the way you've handled yourself (you have a better control of your temper than I do.) But I think you're doing a great job, so I'll save it for now.

Feminism is flawed (and hateful) as a concept, but there are a VERY small minority of "feminists" that I not only support, but actually quite admire.

Take for instance Christina Hoff Sommers. Please, everyone reading this thread, watch this video. It's relatively short (less than 6 minutes), and it's from the mouth of a woman who identifies as being a feminist and actually speaks the truth! An important video, PLEASE watch this.

0 Replies

@Setanta,

Well Setanta, in this case feminism is about censorship (not rape).

The term "Rape Culture" is used to censor certain behavior and artistic expression that usually have nothing to do with rape.

The censorship is the issue.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

By the way Setanta, you should REALLY watch the video I just posted (in reference to our little conversation a few months back about how women "get paid less for equal work".) You can hear what a brilliant woman with a PhD who identifies as being a feminist has to say about that! Very Happy

0 Replies

@ossobuco,

Quote:

I infer, but don't know, that women who don't want to self-identify as feminists think that feminists don't like men, don't appreciate them, are in some way haters at men in general. Maybe they, like Max, assume we don't want men to have rights re the courts. I've no idea what they think as I don't remember talking about it with women I knew...

Gender is only one lens. There are other lenses through which one can look at the world, or factors explaining how it is stratified / structured socially, economically and politically (class, $, race, nationality, religion, political affiliation, education, etc.). Some people can take into account several factors in their view of the world, while others are seemingly obsessed by only one factor, all the time. Maybe that's what Max means by 'ideology'. (ideology as monomania)

So when someone comes across as a bit too shrill about any single issue, be it gender or money or race, he or she puts off the moderates among us, who go: 'Wait wait, it's a bit more complicated than that... They are also good (pick one: men/ women/ rich/ poor/ black/ white/ Parisian/ Californian/ politician/ republican/ gay/ Catholic/ lesbian/ transgender/ handicapped/ geek/ landscape designer...).' :-)

The shrillest feminists have done wrong to their cause, of late. But I trust the pendulum will move back to a more rational view of gender and feminism. Either that, or we all turn gay.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Thanks Olivier, but my point is a little different than that.

What I mean by ideology is a set of assumptions that take the place of facts or logic. In an ideology there is a narrative that influences one's opinions on other issues. Of course a narrative generally has some truth to it, but a narrative also has the ability to distort reality.

The "rape culture" meme is a good example of this. This term tells a story that rap music, or pornography, or certain dating rituals contribute to the amount of rape in society. Lot's of people believe this even though it isn't factually true.

This has a bad effect on society. It means were are being influenced in our opinions and our policies by something that is emotional but doesn't have a solid basis in fact or reason.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

This is a classic straw man argument. I have said clearly what my position on feminism is, and why I have chosen to reject it.

True, but what you define as feminism is not what feminism is. Here is the Oxford definition (but you can find the same definition from a dozen different sites):

Quote:

The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

You say "but that is not what it really is!" Yes it is. Actions or beliefs outside that definition, even if they are done by self proclaimed feminists are not feminism. If a feminist makes a racist comment, that does not mean feminism is racist. If a feminist buys into a conspiracy theory, that does not mean feminism consists of a bunch of conspiracy nuts. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social and economic equality to men. Efforts to paint feminism as something other than that have been used very successfully for the last hundred years or so. Here you can see "feminist movement" being used as a curse word to resist giving women the vote. It has a long history.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2011/08/1.jpg

maxdancona wrote:

I have made it very clear that I am strongly in favor of equal rights and women who advocate for them. I don't care at all what Glen Beck wants me to say.

And yet you are using his rhetoric almost exactly. If one of our ESL posters saw this signature "Pro-equality anti-feminist" and decided to look up what it meant, they would come up with "Pro-equality, but not for women". Since that is not what you mean, why would you post it as your signature on every single post?

maxdancona wrote:

I agree with this completely. The point is that you don't need to accept feminism to want your daughter to have equal opportunities.

Feminism is required for my daughter to have equal opportunities. I can say from first hand experience that she does not have it today. It is better than when my wife started and my wife had it better than those who came ten years before her, but it is not equal.

maxdancona wrote:

The ideas of equality and fairness and safety and respect what is important. If feminism isn't an ideology, then why is someone who believes in equality and fairness and respect attacked for rejecting the term? There is a reason that people insist on feminism instead of "equality and respect". It is because they aren't the same thing.

For those who insist on "feminism", they know that a significant group of people talk about "equality and fairness" and then turn a blind eye when that is not applied to women or minorities or the disabled. It seems like every politician talks about "equality and fairness" right before making a racist or sexist remark. Everyone is about "equality and fairness" for them, not so much for other people.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Yeah. In a conversation with a friend lately, we talked about, along with a lot of other subjects (we were catching up) two articles about the rad feminists, one the friend had read, and one I had recently read in the New Yorker. Through both articles, I got a glimpse of that seemingly tight but also varying world.

As I've said, I've not been around the feminists characterized by some men on a2k, a sort of an introduction to a giant gathering of harpies out to do men in. But I get it that some are probably doctrinaire.

2 Replies

@engineer,

Good morning engineer. The point I am making is way the narratives, such as the "rape culture" narrative, are widely accepted as fact and are influencing policy and stifling discussion in spite of the fact that they have little basis in fact.

I would like to hear your opinion on this.

1 Reply

@One Eyed Mind,

Satan does all the killing. God doesn't kill anyone.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Engineer, let me ask you specifically about the term "rape culture".

I had to go look that up. For those reading along who are as ignorant as me, here is the definition from Wikipedia

Quote:

Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.

Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.

maxdancona wrote:

Do you think this is a useful term to describe our culture?

Do you accept the definition from Wikipedia? If you accept that definition, then parts clearly can be readily observed in our culture. "Victim blaming", check. "Trivializing rape", check. "Refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape", double check. Is it so prevalent that I would use it to describe our entire culture? No, I wouldn't go that far. Just because I can find numerous examples of items listed in the definition, we have a country of 300 million people and cherry picking examples is not sufficient to tar the entire country or culture.

maxdancona wrote:

Is is possible to be a feminist without accepting that America is a rape culture?

Of course, but it is impossible to be a feminist without pointing out that the behaviors are associated with the "rape culture" are wrong and when those behaviors occur in our culture speaking out against them. Denying there are problems or trivializing them moves us more toward a "rape culture" and makes the world a less safe, less rewarding place for our daughters.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Good morning engineer. ...
I would like to hear your opinion on this.

I was getting there. It takes me some time to catch up in the morning. Smile

0 Replies

@engineer,

Thank you for being discussing this reasonably engineer. I do disagree, but I don't mind. The main objection I have is that this narrative distorts facts, it makes people accept as truth things that are not true, and sometimes leads to bad policy. Any narrative has truth to it, but notice that Kolyo linked it to hip hop (which I thought was interesting).

But this is another discussion.... unless you want to dive in.

0 Replies

@engineer,

From what I have been reading, rape culture, is not just an American problem. The problem the way I see it in the US is that some seem to want to find rape acceptable and find ways delegitimize and belittle it. So in the US, we definitely seem to be getting there if not there already.

0 Replies

@engineer,

Quote:

Feminism is required for my daughter to have equal opportunities. I can say from first hand experience that she does not have it today. It is better than when my wife started and my wife had it better than those who came ten years before her, but it is not equal.

I want to respond to this. Your daughter (I assume), like mine, is a white daughter of educated middle class parents. She is privileged by any stretch of the imagination. If current trends hold she might make 4% less than her white middle class male counterparts. That is the plight she is facing.

But come on! She is going to an above average school now. She has a home life that makes academic success fairly easy. She will almost certainly go to a good college and resources will almost certainly not be an issue. She will get a good job, and have a home and a car, just like privileged white women have been doing for decades.

Compare your daughters plight to any other demographic group. Other groups are stopped on the street by cops, shot without much fanfare. A black man will likely make significantly less than your daughter and will have a harder time getting a good job.

White women are a privileged class. This is part of the reason the Hollaback video (where black men were shown "harassing" a white woman) was so troubling.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

'Ideology' usually implies a political cause that comes to dominate the minds of believers so strongly--with the help of complex jargon, self-fulfilling prophecies and other mind-binding devices--that it blinds them to other explanatory factors and to facts that contradict their ideology.

If that's what you're saying, I agree that THE MOST EXTREME FEMINISTS are ideologues.

But for many women, feminism is more a movement aiming for equality than an ideology. They don't buy in the jargon for instance. Look at the rise of the women magazine industry. In France it's now larger than than any other printed press segment. Le Monde: 270,000 paid copies; Marie Claire: 400,000. Women magazine plaster every news stand. I happen to read some of that, mostly for the sex and relationship columns. They don't use the term 'objectification' much, or at all... In fact, most of their content is about having the cutest booty in town. And mind you, Marie Claire was founded as a feminist magazine in the 70s...

How many women buy these magazines? Many many more than there are readers of gender studies.

For most women, feminism is a good cause, an effort towards equality in pay and opportunities and representation, not an ideology, and when you tell them you reject feminism, they read you as rejecting equality... The way I see it, words are for communication. Holding on to your own personal definition of the word will only lead to confusion and misunderstanding.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Quote:

As I've said, I've not been around the feminists characterized by some men on a2k, a sort of an introduction to a giant gathering of harpies out to do men in. But I get it that some are probably doctrinaire.

They are a small minority i think, but they open the flank of feminism to attacks of the types we see here. It's a bit of a facile argument though, to say that feminism is ONLY doctrinaire.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

I see what you are saying Olivier, but I disagree for this reason. The word "feminism" is often manipulative. Slap the "feminism" label on something, and people are much less likely to question it. The "feminism" label turns off reasonable discussion.

Look at what happened in this thread. The initial 38 point post was emphatically labeled "feminism". People like Edgar, and Izzy and Setanta didn't question it at all. They all chimed in they agreed "completely". Anyone who dared to question the points respectfully was shot down with sometimes unprovoked personal attacks.

This happens in real life too. Once something gets a "feminism" label there is political pressure not to challenge it. The racially tinged Hollaback video was defended tooth and nail when people pointed out the fact that only racial minorities were shown as harassers. Groups advocating for the rights of fathers to get equal custody of their kids are viciously attacked and have trouble getting press coverage. The list goes on.

I support a woman equality and equal opportunity. I believe in pay equity. I believe that rape is bad.

But the "feminism" label is slapped on far too many things. It often supports narratives that aren't supported by facts and it puts pressure on people to not question questionable policies.

This is why I want to keep the good things; equality, respect, opportunity and safety, but the label has to go. It is too easy to use it to manipulate people into supporting questionable beliefs and policies.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I want to respond to this. Your daughter (I assume), like mine, is a white daughter of educated middle class parents. She is privileged by any stretch of the imagination.

I absolutely agree. I have this discussion periodically with my children. I want them to understand (consciously, not just somewhere in the back of their mind) that every child does not live in a house where they have their own room with a computer and high speed Internet. Many children do not get to have their parents drive them to sports activities or have a closet full of nice clothes or get travel all over the US and overseas on vacations. When my sons are older, they will likely not have to compete against minorities who were screened out before they ever had a chance due to lack of home environment, lack of educational opportunities or lack of money. My children will never have to work 40 hours/week while trying to keep their college studies up. The world is not fair; I don't lose any sleep over it but it is something you shouldn't be oblivious to. All that said, my daughter will face additional hurdles. My wealth, her education and her background will mitigate some of that, but there will still be hurdles because of her gender. I don't have any problem advocating for those with less to have more opportunities and I sure as hell don't have a problem advocating for my daughter to have the same opportunities as my sons. I don't have a problem advocating for anyone's daughter to have the same rights as my sons.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I see what you are saying Olivier, but I disagree for this reason. The word "feminism" is often manipulative. Slap the "feminism" label on something, and people are much less likely to question it. The "feminism" label turns off reasonable discussion.

I think you are 180 degrees off here. For over 100 years, "feminism" has been used as a pejorative to shut down conversation. That is the way you typically use it. If you want to denigrate an idea without actually debating it, you yell that it is a feminist position implying that it is radical, man-hating, extremist. It is an out to avoid actually discussing the issue. Slap the "feminism" label on something and people are much more likely to reject it without thought. "Feminism" is a code word like "liberal" or "socialist" that is meant to convey all things bad and shut down reasoning thought.

2 Replies

Why I'm a feminist.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know