Why I'm a feminist.

You are right.

Why do you think I'm lying about how I read and write?

You are right. I was wrong to challenge you on how you read the original post.

I'm telling you how I'm reading something - and you respond with "nonsense".

This is why I normally avoid you.

You are right, I should not have said nonsense. But here my point if valid. Very few of her statements actually talk about personal experience.

You are doing a very poor job of avoiding me

This is the most disgusting thing I've read all day.

Coercion is rape.

"No" doesn't mean "persuade me".
It doesn't mean "come on" "I thought you loved me" "everyone does it".
Even in relationships "I don't feel like it" is a perfectly valid no.

You're putting your dick above someone's safety.

That in itself would make me see you as a rape apologist and even a potential rapist and puts up alarm bells immediately.

Thank you.

____


What I'd really like (as I'd said earlier) is for you to try and read that first post in a woman's first person voice and think about how you're going to talk to your daughter about this stuff. Things are better for women than they were when I was TheSubliminalKid's age, but they just aren't good enough yet. I think things are better for men as well, but they aren't good enough yet either.

The words in the original post matter. The ideology behind the original post matters. If she feels the way she implies based on these points it will impact her personal relationships and her ability to see other points of view. These ideas in public life influence policy and society on many levels sometimes in bad ways.

The issue is the ideology. I am reasonable, I agree with many of the points you are making. And, I am open to discussion on the other points as long as my opinion counts even if I disagree with feminism.

When people push ideological narrative, I push back. I feel this is important. It is not good for TheSubliminalKid to close down her beliefs and to see any questioning as a personal attack.

Expected by whom? Those making the advances? You bet!

The women who at times made me unwanted advances (when I was much younger and sexier of course) were not very happy when I said no... I guess they expected me to be silent and accepting, but I couldn't care less what they expected of me.

Freedom is about not conforming to what others expect of you and being fine with it. I do it all the time here. :-)

I do talk to my daughter about this stuff.

I teach her to think critically and to take responsibility for her own feelings (which are the same things I teach my sons). And I teach her to question her own preconceptions and not to swallow ideologies wholesale.

If any of my kids said "I am expected to be silent rather than rejecting someone" I would challenge that. I would tell them that no one can make them feel anything that they don't want to feel. I would tell them that the only expectations that matter are the expectation they have for themselves.

I don't think it is good for TheSublminalKid to be encouranged to shut down her belief system and to see any questioning as hostility. I woudn't do this to any of my kids.

I respectfully disagree, TheSubliminalKid.

Trying to persuade someone is not "coercion" and it certainly isn't rape.

Imagine this conversation.

Person A: Can I use your car tonight?
Person B: I don't feel like letting you use my car?
Person A: Please!!! I let you use my bicycle last week.
Person B: But a car isn't a bicycle.
Person A: You would let me use my car if you loved me.
Person B: The answer is still no.
Person A: Ok. Darn.

How is there anything wrong with this? There is no coercion here. It is just two people expressing what they want. Of course if Person A then takes the car, that would be stealing. But there is nothing wrong with a conversation stating what you want or with trying to persuade someone.

By the way... I feel the term "rape apologist" is a little personal, especially since I have never apologized for rape. This language makes me feel uncomfortable.

Thank you Kid, I'm one too
It's not everyday…..
Did you compose that entire OP

I think this is a case of the World of Max v reality. I'm sure you see the phrase "persuade an unwilling partner," as just pleading for something you normally do when she's just not that into it. In reality we're talking about women being made to do something they really don't want to do, sometimes repeatedly, by all manner of psychological means, threats to leave, sulks, not talking, threats about having the children taken from her etc. etc.



What sort of clubs do you go to? And what movies do you watch? I've never seen anything like that.

Anyway, it is true, there is a feeling that girls pretend they don't when amongst other girls. I've been told that by a lot of women.

And rest assured, nobody's blaming you for that Max. Maybe it's just a problem for women to sort out amongst themselves. We might even be moving in the right direction.



It's not all about you Max. Some women are intimidated by big aggressive men in bars and clubs. You really think that never happens?



Again, it's not all about you. You have to be blind not to see the way women are constantly judged on their looks, just look at the furore surrounding
Renée Zellweger. And yes, it's starting to happen to men too, but that's not exactly a step forward is it? It's a step back. None of us should be judged on our looks.



A bit "poor me" there Max. There's a real problem with the sexual objectification of children, and 15 is a child. American Apparel has come under fire for sexualising it's child models. What do you think the effect of all this is on a 15 yr. old girl?

As a society we should not be encouraging people to find children sexy.



Which puts you at odds with all the great writers and public speakers. Stick to science, and don't be so petty, especially when you're wrong.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_word



So now you're angry with her for getting a prediction wrong, (thus far,) and you're calling her a liar. She's not made up any fictional attacks at all. She's told you what happened and you chose to dismiss it.

Now that's irony.

I hope you understand you cant be a feminist And a Christian woman both. You must pick one or the other.
WOMEN
I Jn 2:15-16
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world-- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-- is not of the Father but is of the world
Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Matt 6:19-21
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
20 "but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:3-4
3 "But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 "that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
I Jn 3:18
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
James 4:10
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
1 Tim 2:9
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
1 Cor 11:4-9
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
James 2:17
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Eph 4:31
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
Eph 5:21-26
21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 6:9
9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
James 1:19
19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;
Matt 5:44
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
1 Tim 2:12-14
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 6:1-2
1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.
2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things.
Rom 13:1-2
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
1 Cor 14:34-37
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
1 Pet 3:1-2
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.
1 Pet 3:5-6
5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands,
6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
Titus 2:3-5
3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things--
4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
Eph 5:33
33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
1 Tim 2:11
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
1 Tim 2:15
15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
Luke 6:41
41 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?
Matt 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (NKJ)

xxxx From birth we were appointed as male or female. Assume the role. God made you what He wanted you to be, and you have to prove yourself as what ever He made you. Put to death the what if's. God has already established the order. Check your spirits, hold to them that glorify Jesus and purge them that dont. Your whole life is set up so you can show God how you are going to be if you get to heaven. Trust God, crucify the flesh(feelings& emotions) submit to the authority that God appointed to you. Prove yourself.
You were given a husband so you can demonstrate just how you would submit to Jesus if you were married to Him.


Luke 16:25
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
(NKJ)

Gal 1:10-12
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

Matt 5:23-24
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
(NKJ)

1Thes 4:1-8
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 5:9-15
9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man,
10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.
11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.
(NKJ)

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)

Eph 5:33
33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
(NKJ)

1 Cor 11:1-3

1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
(NKJ)

Penned this response before you deleted your post.

I wasn't aware I was being belligerent, but you've been belligerent towards the Kid. If you're dismissing my well thought out response was "silly name calling" you've got a problem.

The Kid talked about the problems faced by women, and you internalised it. So much of your responses were about you. This is not about you, really try to move beyond that, because when you keep doing that you are definitely not thinking critically.

Btw, Steve Martin hasn't made a funny film for a very long time, let alone a very funny one.

I'm sure you think you are helping, but when you make statements such as "shut down her ideological beliefs" I'm clueless. It sounds semi-smart but what does it actually mean??? It's babble to my ears and I'm guessing to the other women here as well. You can use the words, logical, reasonable, critical thinking, ridiculous, laughable as much as you want. If you expect anyone to take you seriously, you must understand that you are not in a position to tell others how to feel. The six words that keep popping up in your postings are highly charged and I'm at a loss why you don't understand that.

Although I find you at times to be insufferably arrogant, I also know you are bright. That's where I get confused, why would a bright man consistently insist on telling women what we believe? Women vary greatly, as men vary greatly. You characterized the topic as a "manifesto", but I still think it was the OP venting frustration. There can be no reasoned discussion with someone who is convinced that "feminist" man hating, angry, power hungry, oppressor. I'm sure that all the women who has posted so far have husbands, sons, male friends and I am certain none of us hates men. What you are doing is nullifying women by using the same tactics you think women are using.

Finally, you have tried to hijack this thread as if you started a discussion on why "feminist" is a bad word. And I have yet to see one women get online to agree with your contention that lots of women are opposed to feminism.

PS, it just occurred to me that at least 4 male posters just realized they can create a new account and claim to be a women agreeing with you.

You are making that up. I have never said anything about feminists being man-hating, angry, power hungry or oppressors (again show me if I am wrong and I will gladly admit it). And I don't know what tactics you are talking about. I am looking for a reasonable discussion.

I believe that someone who loves and respects men and believes in equality can be a feminist. If you accept that someone who respects women and believes in equality can reject feminism... then we could have a rational discussion.

What do you say?

So have you changed your mind, or do you still see feminism as a negative thing?

[/quote]

I believe that someone who loves and respects men and believes in equality can be a feminist. If you accept that someone who respects women and believes in equality can reject feminism... then we could have a rational discussion.

What do you say?


[/quote]

I say that your proposal is a contradiction of rational. I also say you are too invested in your negative interpretation to discuss this in a rational fashion. That's too bad Max, but your asking to have your cake and eat it too.

What I really wanted to say is "have you lost your mind!!! But that would be rude. I am starting to believe you are just screwing with us, just to see how often the women will try to explain issues to you. Max, if this is your idea of funny, no one is laughing. You are wasting everyone's time, with utter nonsense. (I absolutely mean utter nonsense)