Why I'm a feminist.

@maxdancona,

Christians don't get rape and death threats for being asked not to be assaulted, in the West at least.

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@maxdancona,

Maybe the response would not be quite so vague, and instead give a point by point rebuttal.

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@maxdancona,

Is it reasonable to laugh at someone's life experience because it is not yours?

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@izzythepush,

I don't mind discussing any of the 38 points. As I have said, I agree with several of them. Many of them are a matter of opinion (and reasonable people disagree on opinion).

I will start with some that in my opinion are the most unreasonable.

- too many men think it's perfectly okay to try and persuade an unwilling partner (there is nothing illegal or even immoral with trying to persuade an unwilling partner).

- girls still feel the need to pretend they don't masturbate when boys talk about it openly (it is fairly common to see women fake masturbate in clubs, and vibrators are openly advertised and featured positively in movies.)

- women are often silent instead of rejecting men in fear of being attacked or hurt. (I have been rejected many times. It has never been silent nor was there any fear.)

- women are only valued via their sexual attractiveness, meaning overweight, elderly, sick and even 30+ women are seen as worthless. (I am a slightly overweight, 30+ guy who has voted for women and has valued female bosses).

- I'm a feminist because we live in a society where a fifteen year old girl is seen as sexier than a forty year old woman. (try being a 40 year old man).

- I'm a feminist because "no" is a complete sentence. (I get the point, but it is still grammatically incorrect)

and finally,

- I'm a feminist because I know I'm going to be getting a series of very personal attacks based on this post, most likely littered with misogynist slurs.

This final statement was not only wrong, but when she was shown it was wrong some fictional attacks were invented to support this narrative.

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@ossobuco,

Thanks Jo. :-)

You know how it is. This place tends to spiral into bitterness a bit too easily and I'm not in the mood for yet another endless, sterile dispute. I self-identify as a moderate feminist just like you do. Since i'm 14, in my case. I don't like to be pigeon-holed, misunderstood or misrepresented, especially when that's done on purpose...

I am getting close to simply give up on the debates and use A2K like so many other people do: as an entertainment center. I'll play a song on Letty's radio once in a while, but for serious debates I should probably look elsewhere.

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@ehBeth,

Maybe because i was under the impression that it needed to be said.

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@maxdancona,

The biggest point here is the "Ism". The fact that out of a 38 point manifesto, any disagreement is attacked.

There is an identity foreclosure here. Anything that supports the ideological narrative is accepted as true, and anything that contradicts it is thrown out. This isn't healthy for TheSubliminalKid (or for anyone else).

I tell my kids to think critically and to question their own beliefs. I live that way.

I am taking a reasonable middle ground. There are many things I agree with in feminism, and several things that I agree with in TheSubliminalKid's manifesto.

Telling TheSubliminalKid that she should hold her ground treat anyone who questions her as hostile isn't healthy for her.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

ehBeth wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
I laugh at some of the claims that are made. They aren't true in the world in which I live in.

this

this is disturbing to me

it is the reason I looked at the thread and left it initially

because things are not true in maxdancona's world, they are to be laughed at

things a woman experiences that distress her can be laughed at because they are not part of his experience

You aren't being reasonable Beth.

what is unreasonable about telling you that I have a problem with you laughing at someone's life experience because it is not part of your world?

I shouldn't tell you that it upset me when you posted that?

It's ok that what you posted distressed me, but I should meet your definition of reasonable in my posts? why not start with meeting my definition of reasonable in your posts?

Seriously.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

have a problem with you laughing at someone's life experience because it is not part of your world?

You have it wrong. I was not laughing at someone's life experience.

These 38 points weren't experience, they were statements of opinion. She makes statements about what boys think about and what is important to them. She states her opinions on male-female relationships.

If she said how she felt about experience she had personally had, I would never laugh at that. That isn't what she is doing.

She is making broad pronouncements about how shes the world including how she views the ways men act and think. I find some of them laughable.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I will start with some that in my opinion are the most unreasonable.

ok

let's make it clearer that these are someone's experiences.

Quote:

Too many men think it's perfectly okay to try and persuade me because there is nothing illegal or even immoral with trying to persuade an unwilling partner

I still feel the need to pretend I don't masturbate when boys talk about it openly

I am expected to be silent instead of rejecting men in fear of being attacked or hurt. When men reject me, they are not quiet about it.

I feel that I am only valued for my sexual attractiveness.

I'm a feminist because I live in a society where at fifteen I am seen as sexier than a forty year old woman.

Someone's experience can't be unreasonable. People may not like them, may not experience them personally, may not want to hear them - but that doesn't mean they aren't their experience.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I'd like to know why you can't respond to my question.

You keep dodging it.

What is unreasonable about me telling you that I have a problem with you saying you laugh at things that are not part of your world?

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

I thought I answered your question. I will do so in more detail...

1. There is nothing unreasonable about you having a problem with anything anyone says. That is your right.

2. What made me laugh is that she is making broad statements about the nature the world and the ways men think. I am a man who has lived in the world. I am laughing because some of her broad generalizations don't match reality as I see it.

Of course, this is a matter of opinion. But different people have different opinions and different ideas on what is laughable.

I would not laugh if she were expressing her personal experiences or her feelings about them.

This was 38 points of broad generalizations in support of an ideological narrative.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

These 38 points weren't experience,

the reality is that those are experiences for women.

As I read each one initially, I read them as "I", "me", "my". They aren't my experience 100% but that is how I read them and how I understood/understand them. They aren't theoretical points.

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@ehBeth,

ditto

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@ehBeth,

Sure...

Yes, saying "I still feel the need to pretend I don't masturbate when boys talk about it openly" is statement of personal experience. I wouldn't bat an eye if she had said that instead of what she actually said.

Let's look at the statement "I am expected to be silent instead of rejecting men in fear of being attacked or hurt. When men reject me, they are not quiet about it." Do you expect her to be silent, Beth? I don't. The woman who reject me quite often obviously don't feel the same.

If she were talking about personal experience she might say "I feel I have to be silent instead of rejecting man". This would mean she was taking responsibility for her own feelings, rather than giving other people the responsibility for how she feels.

Your fourth example ("I feel I am only valued for my sexual attractiveness") is perfect.

The last one is too vague to mean anything. Personally I think there is nothing sexier than a forty year old women. Fifteen year old girls aren't sexy at all, I don't find anyone under the age of 30 the slightest bit attractive. But that is just me.

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@maxdancona,

We read the original post very differently. I read it as womanspeak - a woman posting something in a detached, impersonal way so she won't be attacked personally. I realized that I'd done the same thing when Olivier responded to something I'd posted in a different tense than the real one. I'm working on overcoming it, but it's a big project to get past those 50+ years of socialization.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
These 38 points weren't experience,

the reality is that those are experiences for women.

As I read each one initially, I read them as "I", "me", "my". They aren't my experience 100% but that is how I read them and how I understood/understand them. They aren't theoretical points.

Nonsense. Again, let's at the facts. Take away the repeated phrase "I'm a feminist because" how many of these statements even have a first person pronoun?

The answer is 3 out of the 38 (and I was really stretching it to find them...).

These are broad political generalizations of the world. These aren't personal statements.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let's look at the statement "I am expected to be silent instead of rejecting men in fear of being attacked or hurt. When men reject me, they are not quiet about it." Do you expect her to be silent, Beth? I don't. The woman who reject me quite often obviously don't feel the same.

If she were talking about personal experience she might say "I feel I have to be silent instead of rejecting man". This would mean she was taking responsibility for her own feelings, rather than giving other people the responsibility for how she feels.

my honest response is that I feel that women are still expected to be silent and accepting of men's unwanted advances.

Read the Zerbisias piece I linked #beenrapedneverreported is shaking up things in my immediate circle.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

We read the original post very differently. I read it as womanspeak - a woman posting something in a detached, impersonal way so she won't be attacked personally. I realized that I'd done the same thing when Olivier responded to something I'd posted in a different tense than the real one. I'm working on overcoming it, but it's a big project to get past those 50+ years of socialization.

I don't buy that. Facts are facts. She is making political points in support of an ideology. When someone makes broad generalizations in support of a political ideology, it is fair to question them. It would be sexist if I challenged a man's point of view and did challenge her point of view.

Logic, facts and critical thought don't have a gender.

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@maxdancona,

I am telling you how I read that OP.

You can't tell me I didn't.

I did.

I'm a woman and that's how I read it.

1 Reply

Why I'm a feminist.

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