Why I'm a feminist.

I don't think (hope) that he realizes how some things he posts look to other people.

I know, I've agreed with Max on plenty in the past, I don't consider him beyond the pale, just myopic, and unwilling to accept anything that challenges his rose tinted perception of the World.

I take it Max is put off by some academic and/or radical feminist views. I and some other older feminists never got into much academic feminist book reading. I've said here on a2k a few times that I threw out my paperback copy of The Feminist Mystique by Betty Friedan, because I still believed a woman had to obey the husband. This was in the early sixties, I forget the year. Not long later I changed on that for a variety of reasons, but never did read the book through.

I later heard of some of the rad views, mostly from magazine articles way back when (later sixties, early seventies?), and could barely name the writers, much less their individual viewpoints. I've lately heard more about rad feminism via conversations with friends, and tried to read up, but get confused or put off by their arguments with each other. I will probably read more one of these days, but I'm in no hurry. The feminist I liked back in the day was Gloria Steinem, who I remember certainly did like some men, but I could no more post all her points of view than I could recite the Periodic Table.

I infer, but don't know, that women who don't want to self-identify as feminists think that feminists don't like men, don't appreciate them, are in some way haters at men in general. Maybe they, like Max, assume we don't want men to have rights re the courts. I've no idea what they think as I don't remember talking about it with women I knew...

You aren't being reasonable Beth. This isn't an all or nothing thing. There were 38 points in the original post, some of them made sense, some of them didn't. Reasonable people can disagree. My experience counts as much as yours. The experience of other women count as much as yours.

I am not pushing an ideology, quite the contrary. I can accept a lot of thing said by feminists. I said from the beginning that I agree with some of what TheSubliminalKid said.

Rather than looking at feminism as an all or nothing thing, we can't we look at each issue point by point and discuss them respectfully. I think the problem with this thread is the all or nothing thinking

I am saying ... "I am not a feminist but I agree with some of what you are saying and respect your right to disagree on others."

If you could say... "I am not an anti-feminist but I agree with some of what you are saying and respect your right to disagree" we would go a long way to having a respectful discussion.

I am fine with you being a feminist... and I believe that you and I probably agree on many things. I just wish that my being an anti-feminist didn't mean that you and I can't have a respectful discussion.

Your wish is my commend, Beth. I can shut it up completely if you say so.

Do you understand why it is hard to see you laugh at another woman's life experience because it's not part of your world?

For the record, there are a lot of women who agree with me about feminism. And, there are a lot of people who are put off by feminists.

Being an anti-feminist means objecting to some of an ideology as popularly understood. This is not the same as being anti-woman.

That was actually a question.

I suppose I can too.

All right then.

I'd watch that echo chamber thing, though.

I get a sense we're not welcome here.

Still, talk to your daughter about this.

And that was my honest answer. Try me.

the original 38 points were about one woman's life experience

you can't say they don't make sense because they're not part of your world

that is where you are being unreasonable

things aren't only reasonable if you experience them

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I'd suggest you go back and read each point in the OP as if your daughter was telling you that each of those things had happened to her or been observed by her. Think about how you'd talk to her about each of those experiences.

TheSubliminalKid is an amazing young woman, closer in age to your daughter than to most other A2K posters. She really was a kid when we first met her here. Scarily smart and thoughtful with a lot of life experiences.

You aren't unwelcome here to me, speaking for myself of course.

I was hoping you would tell me why you felt you needed to qualify the initial sentence.

The thing is Max, when you say what you don't agree with and are presented with facts you seem to back down.

Is that why you're being vague about what it is you agree with? You accused me of posting factual inaccuracies but you haven't said what those inaccuracies are.

The only thing you've been able to prove, so far at least, is that she hasn't been subject to misogynistic attacks on this particular thread. I wouldn't hold your breath, Nonono has already posted on this thread and he has a track record of launching misogynistic attacks on women. Just ask Firefly.

actually what you said was that you laughed at the things that aren't in your world

if that is your view of respect, we're going to find it difficult to agree

Thank you Izzy. That is the nicest thing anyone on Able2Know has ever said to me.

So what do you still have an issue with? Is it something the Kid actually posted or is it just stuff in your head?

I don't think I am being unreasonable. If someone had posted a similar 38 point piece on "Why I'm a Christian" they would have gotten a much stronger response.