Fergusonj shooting, autopsy in, all shots from front

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

and this cop is such a poor shot that every one missed till he turned around, the story goes, the the cop was accurate 6 times.

Possibly a moving target verses a stationary one. Possibly the cop did not fire until Brown turned around.

The 6 shots that hit were hardly accurate. None of them were in the center of mass that the cop would have been aiming for. As far as stopping power goes, the four in the arm might as well have been misses.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.
The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' " and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown, Johnson said.
Johnson and a bloodied Brown took off running, and Johnson hid behind the first car he saw, he said. The officer got out of his car.
"I saw the officer proceeding after my friend Big Mike with his gun drawn, and he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike," Johnson told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting. But at that time, the officer firing several more shots into my friend, and he hit the ground and died."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/

Obviously this story is not right because there was no gunpowder on the dead guy, the first shot could not possibly have happened as his buddy says it did. We have three primary witnesses, one is dead, one is accused, and one is a liar. One wonders how the truth will ever be discovered. No discovery of the truth means the cop does not get charged, and while the victims family could sue in the civil court I doubt the cop has any assets to take. Maybe the city could be sued but that sounds complicated.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.
The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' " and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown, Johnson said.
Johnson and a bloodied Brown took off running, and Johnson hid behind the first car he saw, he said. The officer got out of his car.
"I saw the officer proceeding after my friend Big Mike with his gun drawn, and he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike," Johnson told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting. But at that time, the officer firing several more shots into my friend, and he hit the ground and died."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/

Obviously this story is not right because there was no gunpowder on the dead guy, the first shot could not possibly have happened as his buddy says it did. We have three primary witnesses, one is dead, one is accused, and one is a liar. One wonders how the truth will ever be discovered. No discovery of the truth means the cop does not get charged, and while the victims family could sue in the civil court I doubt the cop has any assets to take. Maybe the city could be sued but that sounds complicated.

So you are saying that Big Mike was naked when this all happened...or didn't happen?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

So you are saying that Big Mike was naked when this all happened.

Are you saying his clothes have not been tested? I am under the impression that bodies are delivered to the morgue as found.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

what does a soffet cover have to do with anything?

Good one... yes I know I hit the a instead of the e...I never could type.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
So you are saying that Big Mike was naked when this all happened.
Are you saying his clothes have not been tested? I am under the impression that bodies are delivered to the morgue as found.

I am saying that I do not know if the results of tests on the clothes contain residue or not...and I strongly suspect neither do you.

0 Replies

@farmerman,

Im not up on Pa. law but I would guess it is diferent for those sworn who are under color and authority of office.

Tasers: Ever use one? Dont bet you life on it. Very problematic device.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

Eye witnesses said that Qilson

Uh... who is Qilson?? (yeah I couldnt resist)

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@giujohn,

Ive been tazed as a security exercise for DOE facilities where I have clearance. All of us in the training group had to undergo it after a checkup . We all went down like sackof stones. Noone was wearing heavy coats orkevlar or tygon or anything that would serve to dull the response.
Training is the key, if Ferguso cops ere so armed with security Mce or Tasers, my investigation notes would be to question why a gun first, especially such a lower power one .

"Stop the attack to affect an arrest---That's what the rules in Mo ' "rules of engagement". It didn't say keep shooting till the alleged perp is no longer living.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

Ive been tazed as a security exercise for DOE

Quote:

It didn't say keep shooting till the alleged perp is no longer living.

Being tased and employing it it when in the fight or flight syndrome is apples and oranges...YOU DONT BET YOUR LIFE ON IT.

The training for use of deadly force says you keep shooting until the threat ceases.

How easy it is to Monday morning quarter back.

2 Replies

@giujohn,

Quote:

The training for use of deadly force says you keep shooting until the threat ceases.

The problem in this case, is that there is no evidence--yet--that there was any actual threat to Wilson's life when he was shooting. There certainly wasn't when Brown was running away from Wilson. And there is eyewitness disagreement about whether Brown was charging toward Wilson when he suffered that fatal shot.

1 Reply

@giujohn,

Quote:

The training for use of deadly force says you keep shooting until the threat ceases

Mo rules for cops say otherwise

Quote:

How easy it is to Monday morning quarter back

I speak from experience. Ive been shot at in anger and have lost men (and body parts). Whats your "quarterback experience"?

3 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

The problem in this case, is that there is no evidence--yet

You are right in that we dont know yet. But you also have to consider that the officer may have employed his firearm to end Browns flight as a fleeing violent felon who would have been a continuing threat to police and others. I.E.; felonious assault on a police officer and attempting to seize his firearm.

People may not like that type use of deadly force but in many jurisdictions it's legal. And frankly, any person who assaults an officer in the course of his duty and causes injury AND trys to get his gun (and we have to assume his intent in getting it was to use in on the officer) sure be apprehended at all reasonable costs.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

My experience is as a police officer; Military, Civilian and Federal. Starting in 1975.

0 Replies

@farmerman,

I SAID:
"The training for use of deadly force says you keep shooting until the threat cease."
YOU SAID: Mo rules for cops say otherwise

Pray tell what does it say?

0 Replies

@giujohn,

Quote:

sure be apprehended at all reasonable costs...

I don't think that killing a suspect is a "reasonable cost" of apprehending him, unless he is posing an imminent threat to someone's life, and there is no other alternative. I expect, and want, police to display greater regard for human life than that.

The police officer who recently killed an unarmed black man in Staten Island, by putting him in a chokehold so he could be held down and handcuffed, while the man was saying, "I can't breathe," also used needlessly excessive deadly force, although not with a gun. This suspect was also a big guy--I think he was 6'2 and 350 pounds--but holding him that way was not justifiable. Either you have enough officers to properly and safely restrain someone, or you hold off on trying to handcuff them. They deal with this sort of problem all the time on psych units and ERs--they handle it with manpower, not bullets or chokeholds. It takes at least 5 people, one to hold each limb, and one to hold the head, to safely restrain someone. Because this event was videotaped, and the coroner ruled the death was primarily due to the chokehold and chest compression, I think a Grand Jury may well indict this officer. Thousands demonstrated yesterday in Staten Island regarding this death.

On Staten Island, Thousands Protest Police Tactics
By J. DAVID GOODMAN AUG. 23, 2014
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/nyregion/on-staten-island-thousands-protest-police-tactics.html

And, in the case of Michael Brown, I do want to know how a pedestrian traffic stop escalated into a homicide, and what justification officer Wilson had, if any, for shooting at someone who was running away from him. It certainly couldn't be self defense.

And, as you agree, we don't know yet what actually transpired, or why.

2 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

Either you have enough officers to properly and safely restrain someone, or you hold off on trying to handcuff them.

I dont mean to be unkind but I dont think you're living in the real world here.
Are you suggesting that a police car always holds 5 officers? Do you really want to tell your police that they should not do their job unless they have several officers to help? Do you really want offenders to get a way based on this strategy? What do you think the criminals would do if they knew that? What if there were 5 criminals in concert, do we now need 10 officers in a van on on every beat?
If a man has just finished raping someone and is running away, in your scenario the officer should let him go? (no imminent threat there)
If 300lb 6'4' man thought nothing of strong arm robbing a merchant and assaulting a police officer and trying to get his gun, is this man a potenial continuing threat to police and other civilians? What if you were the next person to encounter him and he hit you in the head and caused a subdural hematoma? I guess you would be suing the police for letting him go... if you lived...and with good cause I might add.
No, thank goodness we have dedicated police officers who run torward the sound of gunfire so that YOU dont have to. And it is dedication you know, because no one EVER got rich being a cop.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

Mo rules for cops say otherwise

Still cant find it???

(Thats because it doesnt exist)

1 Reply

@giujohn,

as the title said "use of deadly force is to assist in the APPREHENSION of a suspect" (It didn't say until the suspect is done breathing)

I read it twice from the Mo code and paraphrsed it a few more times. If you merely wish to ignore the statute don't blame me .

1 Reply

@giujohn,

We simply disagree.

I don't want the police shooting anyone, who is not posing an imminent threat to someone's life, in order to make an arrest or to apprehend a suspect.

I do live in the real world, where I have been a crime victim, and I pay taxes that finance police salaries in that real world, which means I should have a say in what I want them empowered to do, in the guise of protecting and serving the citizenry, including when I feel their use of deadly force is justified and necessary, and when its not. And, other citizens, on Grand Juries, will have a similar say regarding officer Wilson, and the Staten Island officer who used the chokehold on Eric Garner that killed him.

Quote:

And it is dedication you know, because no one EVER got rich being a cop.

Now you're not living in the real world.

It's not all dedication, you can definitely get rich being a cop in NY--particularly in Nassau or Suffolk county.

Click on the link below and check out the tidy sums on this list--the top earner got a retirement package of $876,078.35 in 2010.

Quote:

Nassau County police officers' salaries

This chart lists salaries for all Nassau County police officers who made more than $150,000 in 2010, whether they were active or they retired last year. The total earnings column exceeds the sum of all the compensation categories because not all compensation is listed here; bonuses, for example, are not listed. Employees with a "Y" in the "County retirement" column took an early-retirement incentive; those with an "R" did not. (Source: Nassau County Comptroller's Office)
http://longisland.newsday.com/templates/simpleDB/?pid=173

Here's why they earn so much...

Quote:

McMahon: Nassau's wildly lavish police pay
February 22, 2012
By E.J. MCMAHON

Unaffordable public employee union contracts are a problem all over New York. But the Nassau PBA contract is extraordinarily costly and inefficient, even absent the fabulously lucrative buyouts Nassau wants to give some veteran officers to go away. Median pay for Nassau officers as of 2011 was $150,000 -- 46 percent above the median for teachers, administrators and other professionals in Nassau school districts, who are among the best-paid K-12 educators in the country.

Once Nassau's cops retire -- after as few as 20 years on the job -- they continue to receive free taxpayer-funded health insurance on top of generous pensions, which are further inflated by late-career overtime and severance pay. Of the 1,652 New York State and Local Retirement System members entitled to pensions of more than $100,000 as of fiscal 2011, fully 22 percent (371) were former Nassau police officers.

A handful of other police agencies in downstate New York -- including Suffolk County's -- had pay levels rivaling those of Nassau. In Nassau's case, however, high compensation costs are tied to work rules designed to confound any attempt to boost productivity.

For example, Nassau police are entitled to six weeks vacation, a week of personal time, time off for blood drives, and up to five weeks of sick time. Indeed, officers get so much leave they "have the flexibility to work less than half time," the accounting firm of Grant Thornton told the Nassau Interim Finance Authority in a report last September...
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/mcmahon-nassau-s-wildly-lavish-police-pay-1.3549251

1 Reply

Fergusonj shooting, autopsy in, all shots from front

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