What would you do?

Did his wife know about you for the thirteen years he was living with her as her husband, and having a relationship with you?

An opinion: I think it could be argued that beginning a relationship in that way seriously negatively alters it's chances of developing healthily. The man (in this case) doesn't have to play on an even field with you. You bend and bend and bend--he is trained to present any set of circumstances for you to accept. I think it devalues the one making the concessions (whether consciously or unconsciously) in the mind of the one, who is having those concessions met...

However, I would have thought when he finally made the decision seven years ago to be with you--that may have been your happy ending, against all odds.

It sort of backs up the notion that a relationship is like a plant... The way it takes root does have an impact on it's ability to flower. (I've already punished myself for that lame analogy.)

I saw where you are planning a move--a fresh start. I'm happy for you. I'm planning to do the same. I hope it is envigorating and rewarding for you. I would try to put good things in my life, and remove myself from things that bring him to mind.

You are an incredible woman. Demand your gusto! VIVA LA CHICKS!

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I did the move.

There are pluses and minuses, but with all of it, I don't want to go back.

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ossobuco wrote:

And, tap tap tap, therapists aren't perfect.

Still, the whole picture is not jammed with hope. If I were you I might not Never darken his door, I might leave a note re "if you want to talk". And then go ahead and Never Darken His Door, and live my life.

<snip> This is all very dramatic, as we all agree. But many people in marriages at your age are also thinking, huh? wtf?

Regard yourself well, whatever you do.

I'm quite upset with my therapist. She's decided she knows so much about him from seeing him twice in a year, for a total period of less than two hours. She's trying to turn this into him being a bad guy I should be angry with. That's not to say that there aren't issues that are unsettling, such as him knowing about this for months and not telling me, or his revelation to her that he hasn't been seeing a therapist reqularly, but her comments go to the core of who he is and after 20 years, I think I would recognize if he was just a horrible, abusive person.

I had a meltdown yesterday after I returned from Atlantic City where he and I had gone together. I called and left several sobbing messages on his cell phone. The main gist was that I would try not to contact him, but to remember I love him, that I am here if he needs anything, and regardless of what my therapist may have said to him, please don't be afraid to call or come back. Then I sat down in a heap on the floor and sobbed uncontrollably for an hour, took an Ambien and went to sleep.

You're right and I know that many people find themselves in a situation where a long term relationship ends and they all feel empty, lonely, scared and depressed, not knowing what their life is about any more.
This is just one of those situations that defies the normal endings of divorce or death. Giving up a relationship for a dying child is a mixture of integrity, unselfish love and yet a tragedy to him, me, his wife, and all those his daughter leaves behind to live a lie instead of being truthful.

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Sofia wrote:

Did his wife know about you for the thirteen years he was living with her as her husband, and having a relationship with you?

<snip>

However, I would have thought when he finally made the decision seven years ago to be with you--that may have been your happy ending, against all odds.

<snip>
You are an incredible woman. Demand your gusto! VIVA LA CHICKS!

I'm not feeling very incredible right now but I do appreciate the acceptance and non judgement.

I had talked with his wife on occassion when he and I worked together and I had reason to call there for business. I think I saw her once or twice at company parties in the first year or two. A few years in, when I had to call the house she was very icy and I think she knew then.
I know for a fact she's known at least 10-12 years because I not only called her but sent her a few letters when he was going back and forth.
I even talked to his daughter when she was 16 and he had left the first time. At 16, his daughter said she didn't want him to go, but she wanted him to be happy. Fast forward 7 years later, she's dying and scared and all she's thinking about is herself (and rightly so)

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ossobuco wrote:

I did the move.

There are pluses and minuses, but with all of it, I don't want to go back.

I've decided not to make any major decisions right now. I'm clearing through the clutter in the house so if I decide that later, it will be easier. If I don't decide to go, at least my house will be clean and organized.

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That's an excellent plan, Camille.

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jespah wrote:

I know you want to know why, but I suspect that "why" is something of a red herring. I don't believe for one second that it was anything you, personally, did or didn't do. You are not at fault here. There is no fault here. It's a horrible, tragic situation and horrible, tragic situations can take on lives of their own and no one's to blame for how they work out. They just sort of unfold.

I'm fairly sure the "why" is the overwhelming emotions of facing a son every day that is in PVS for the next 30-40 years, a daughter that is dying begging him to come home, and much guilt. Everyone was against us- his parents, his son, his daughter. His parents were especially hard on him, constantly telling him how wrong he was to leave his wife. They never stopped. When he finally worked through all his issues and was finally willing to end his marriage and go forward with his life, all of these catastrophic things started happening.

That being said, I keep thinking about what could have been, what I could have done differently, how I might have headed this off. I take some comfort in your thoughts that this is not about me at all, but I sure feel like somehow I wasn't good enough, was less than the wife and so forth. Sad

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Camille -- Are you familiar with Kubler-Ross's stages of grief? If so, then you know that anger is a very important part of the grieving process. I think your therapist was just trying to get you to move beyond the shock & denial phase. Anger is usually (but not always) next. Then bargaining, then depression, then finally acceptance. But none of this is clear-cut, and there is no average timeline.

It seems to me that you have plenty to be angry about. This guy strung you along for twenty years and never did marry you! I would be furious! I wouldn't go so far as to label him a "horrible, abusive person," but he has certainly called all the shots, now, hasn't he.

Of course, you have allowed him to. You "weren't good enough"??? By WHOSE standards...his?! Is that what you're imagining? That shouldn't even count. You don't have to compete with anybody. You're FINE, just the way you are. And anybody who doesn't think so should have to settle for a quick kiss on your way out the door.

I hope when the fog clears, you will decide never again to allow someone else to have that much power over your life.

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I could hate my ex and am just not going there. Things weren't quite as dramatic as yours, hey, you could write a screenplay, but never mind, sorry to kid at a time like this, but when else? I am not going there because my ex is not an abusive evil person and neither is your fellow. There are layers of complexity, and in my case I look at my being with him in the first place. It takes two.

You have things to decide, unwind for, re the future. Activating your self for a good future. There is a certain gearing up for that that involves resting, rage, exploring, rage, (some of the rage will be against yourself),something new, anger, and gradual distance.

When I was in my early twenties and lost a love, it killed me, I thought, and when I was thirty, it really did, the despair/confusion lasted about three years, and then I met my husband, happy for a long time and then downhill.
You are the same person through all of this, whatever the This is.

It is a trick, letting go and not firebombing your life and your attachments. Actually you can gain in serenity, but that sounds like bushwah. But you can become sturdy and strong through this - not that you wanted to go there - and still savor times past. Really, you have to. It just takes a while....

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Do as much as you can for the 22 year old, but don't his/her wishes redirect your own life.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Do as much as you can for the 22 year old, but don't his/her wishes redirect your own life.

Too late, he made the decision to go back for her.

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Eva wrote:

Camille -- Are you familiar with Kubler-Ross's stages of grief? If so, then you know that anger is a very important part of the grieving process. I think your therapist was just trying to get you to move beyond the shock & denial phase. Anger is usually (but not always) next. Then bargaining, then depression, then finally acceptance. But none of this is clear-cut, and there is no average timeline.

It seems to me that you have plenty to be angry about. This guy strung you along for twenty years and never did marry you! I would be furious! I wouldn't go so far as to label him a "horrible, abusive person," but he has certainly called all the shots, now, hasn't he.

Of course, you have allowed him to. You "weren't good enough"??? By WHOSE standards...his?! Is that what you're imagining? That shouldn't even count. You don't have to compete with anybody. You're FINE, just the way you are. And anybody who doesn't think so should have to settle for a quick kiss on your way out the door.

I hope when the fog clears, you will decide never again to allow someone else to have that much power over your life.

I remember a tape I was listening to once where the speaker was talking about self esteem and what relationships breaking apart does to you. She said if you wonder why nobody is spending the evenings with you, ask yourself if you want to spend evenings with you. If not, why should anyone else?

I think I have had a long time hoping for him to finally leave the past behind. It was something that hung over me and pushed me down constantly. It always seemed to be a competition, if not between his wife and I, between his kids and I. On the kids I always used to say why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? I suppose I started questioning my value, wondering why he didn't consider me as much as the kids or his parents.

Things between us were so good most of the time, until there was a holiday, or some situation in life where families come together and because his parents and kids disapproved he'd wind up going to them without me. It hurt a lot that he wouldn't set limits with them and stand up to them. I guess I learned to be second best and I don't know how to get out of that.

I'll never understand why he didn't go through with the divorce. Maybe he felt sorry for her, guilty that she'd have to start paying him for the house his daughter still lived in and then of course when things happened with the kids, it was all on her shoulders to take care of. She nursed the daughter after surgery and through chemo and the whole issue with their son was dropped in her lap by the daugher in law. That's the kicker. He's seeing a caring, loving side of her again towards the kids but a loving mother is not the same as a loving wife!

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ossobuco wrote:

I could hate my ex and am just not going there. Things weren't quite as dramatic as yours, hey, you could write a screenplay, but never mind, sorry to kid at a time like this, but when else? I am not going there because my ex is not an abusive evil person and neither is your fellow. There are layers of complexity, and in my case I look at my being with him in the first place. It takes two.

You have things to decide, unwind for, re the future. Activating your self for a good future. There is a certain gearing up for that that involves resting, rage, exploring, rage, (some of the rage will be against yourself),something new, anger, and gradual distance.

When I was in my early twenties and lost a love, it killed me, I thought, and when I was thirty, it really did, the despair/confusion lasted about three years, and then I met my husband, happy for a long time and then downhill.
You are the same person through all of this, whatever the This is.

It is a trick, letting go and not firebombing your life and your attachments. Actually you can gain in serenity, but that sounds like bushwah. But you can become sturdy and strong through this - not that you wanted to go there - and still savor times past. Really, you have to. It just takes a while....

no, that sure wasn't the plan.......... Crying or Very sad

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Camille, I don't get your answer, sorry to be thick. Which was whose plan?

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ossoB, I read that to mean that letting go was not in Camille's plans.

Camille, your take on c.i.'s comment was interesting to me.

Quote:

<snip> but don't his/her wishes redirect your own life.

Camille: Too late, he made the decision to go back for her.

Or maybe it's my take on the take?

It seems that you've let other people run things for a very long time. The more you post, the more it appears that you were kept on the periphery of your own life. I hope you and your therapist can find a way for you to re-connect with yourself, and direct your own life.

The fella has made a decision about his life. It has had, and will have an impact on your life. The degree depends on you, not him. I think c.i. had this bang on.

I can only wish you strength in dealing with this horrible, nasty, messy stuff. As jespah has said, you're part of a community. You are not alone. Here or out in real life.

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Camille wrote:

I think I have had a long time hoping for him to finally leave the past behind. It was something that hung over me and pushed me down constantly.

Isn't it about time you stood up? I think you deserve that.

Camille wrote:

It always seemed to be a competition, if not between his wife and I, between his kids and I. On the kids I always used to say why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? I suppose I started questioning my value, wondering why he didn't consider me as much as the kids or his parents.......It hurt a lot that he wouldn't set limits with them and stand up to them. I guess I learned to be second best and I don't know how to get out of that.

You've been too nice, Camille. Don't settle for second best. If you do that, you'll never get what you really want.

Camille wrote:

I'll never understand why he didn't go through with the divorce.

Because he's never been able to let go of his family. That's why. You were fighting a losing battle.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I don't mean to be. I know you're miserable right now, and I wish I could say something to take the hurt away. Unfortunately, I simply don't have that power. All I can do is tell you the truth as it appears to me. I think you deserve better than you got, Camille. And I think that despite the loss of your longtime love, you're finally out of a bad situation. I know it doesn't feel like that now, but I do think that someday you will look back on all this and agree.

(((((HUGE HUG))))))

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Well, it's true, ehBeth, I don't know if Camille has gotten as far as letting go - maybe moving to an edge to face, when some of us think the sooner she gets there the better. But, I am not sooo for rushing it. One needs to gel with one's feelings. And Camille has dwelt in one direction for a long time. I speak to this as I put twenty years in a direction that didn't work out too. One can't just flip it off, in one step. Let me suggest lap swimming.....

To live life serenely for decades more, one needs to adjust the disparate halves, synchromesh them, so that you don't end up despising your previous self, which is, after all, you.

None of this s/t is easy.

Not exactly. You might be able to flip it off faster than you thought you could though. But it takes some equilibrating.

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I'm reminded of the old Gloria Gaynor hit, "I Will Survive". You will. You'll be strong. You'll be better than this. You will get through this and come out the other side a stronger and more confident person.

Yes, really. I believe you will. But you have to let yourself be that way. Eva's right - there's no need for you to be second best and you shouldn't be settling for that.

One thing about confidence (and the lack thereof) is that it can be taught. Literally, you get up in the morning and say to yourself, I'm going to do great things today. I'm going to do something new, something that scares me. And then tomorrow I can say that it doesn't scare me any more. That's not easy in the beginning, and it may sound hokey, but it does work.

If you, for example, go through life terrified of horses, go to a horse farm and look around. You don't need to ride a bucking bronco. You don't even need to get out of the car. Just go and be there. And then the next day, go to the farm and this time open the door. And then the next, step out for a moment. And you work yourself up to petting a horse and saying hello, and you find out that they're kinda nice critters and most of them are just sweet, patient animals.

There are very few nonphysical attributes that we are born with. We are not born with fear. We are not born with prejudice. We are not born with sorrow. We learn all of these things and we can learn new patterns at any time and at any age, but these patterns take a while to develop. They don't spring up overnight. So the same principle applies here, as it does to the horse example. You take a minute and say to yourself, I didn't deserve this. I did nothing wrong. And then tomorrow you take 2 minutes, and you add I'm a good person and I deserve to be treated better than this. And then the next day you add more to this - it's called an affirmation.

And yes, they sound like New Age silliness, and a lot of them are, but there's nothing wrong with telling yourself that you're going to do well and be happy and good things are going to happen to you. These things don't happen magically and I am not suggesting that. Rather, what I am suggesting is that when you are ready to do so, you can work to change the one thing you know you can change about this whole experience - your perspective.

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ossobuco wrote:

Camille, I don't get your answer, sorry to be thick. Which was whose plan?

to become "sturdy" and strong.

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ossobuco wrote:

Well, it's true, ehBeth, I don't know if Camille has gotten as far as letting go - maybe moving to an edge to face, when some of us think the sooner she gets there the better. But, I am not sooo for rushing it. One needs to gel with one's feelings. And Camille has dwelt in one direction for a long time. I speak to this as I put twenty years in a direction that didn't work out too. One can't just flip it off, in one step. Let me suggest lap swimming.....

To live life serenely for decades more, one needs to adjust the disparate halves, synchromesh them, so that you don't end up despising your previous self, which is, after all, you.

None of this s/t is easy.

Not exactly. You might be able to flip it off faster than you thought you could though. But it takes some equilibrating.

thank you for that. It's been 12 days.

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