39
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 07:47 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I know what you think


I'm sure you do. There are also Americans who feel the same way you do, a camp to which I do not belong.

Quote:
Personally I think he's someone who exposed corrupt, and in some cases, criminal activities in the top levels of government.


There's no quarrel that Snowden laid bare for the world to see various levels of blameworthiness within the US metadata system. Technology is being improved more and more as we speak and many problems will with the courts be resolved. What I object to is America is Snowden's home, his extended family. There existed avenues for him or anyone to explain their frustration with the government's way of collecting data on groups, people, governments, etc. Family loyalty is very important to me and many others. I don't want my home damaged through misunderstandings. Snowden crossed that invisible line disclosing Federal classified information when he offered it up to Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald who hasn't been elected an official of the US. Greenwald gets to decide what he posts regarding this classified information. Why?! Who died and make Greenwald the power broker of the US government?!

Quote:
Who watches the watchmen?


Interesting question. There are rules, oversights, but we have yet to reach that plateau of perfection.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 07:58 am
@Moment-in-Time,
I can only wonder if somehow the US government did get their hands on Snowden how the government is planning on being able to filter out the large percent of the total population who view him as a hero from the jury.

If there was ever a case that cried out for jury nullification this would be the case.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:01 am
Snowden deserves the same fair trial that the mighty and self-righteous USA served on George W Bush. That same fair trial that the Gitmo inmates got. Fair is fair. ;-)
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:08 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
There existed avenues for him or anyone to explain their frustration with the government's way of collecting data on groups, people, governments, etc.


Sure there is and we should just disregard and trust a completely out of control executive branch who intelligent community not only had been found to lied to the congress but even spy on the congress by hacking into congressional computers.

Going public in such a situation seem more then call for.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

People like Izzy, Bill and a few others keep talking about "a fair trial"...but the last thing in the world they (and Snowden) want...IS A FAIR TRIAL.


You're probably more right than wrong. A "fair trial" will ultimately see Snowden getting jail time while making his supporters very unhappy.
Olivier5
 
  6  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:38 am
@Moment-in-Time,
A fair trial would start with presumption of innocence, not guilt. What you guys want is revenge.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:42 am
@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

A fair trial would start with presumption of innocence, not huilt.


Every trial in the United States starts with a presumption of innocence, Olivier.

Never with guilt.


Quote:


What you guys want is revenge.


What I want is what I said...a fair trial.

What you guys want is for Edward Snowden to be found innocent...no matter what the facts.

Any warped thinking on this issue comes from your side...not the side I am on.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:45 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
There existed avenues for him or anyone to explain their frustration with the government's way of collecting data on groups, people, governments, etc.


Sure there is and we should just disregard and trust a completely out of control executive branch who intelligent community not only had been found to lied to the congress but even spy on the congress by hacking into congressional computers.

Going public in such a situation seem more then call for.


You do not get to decide that, Bill...and neither does Edward Snowden.

Under any circumstances he is charged with stealing classified government documents and releasing them to unauthorized persons (specifics already given by me and by Walter). That is what he will be tried on if he ever returns (or is returned) to the United States.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 08:56 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
A "fair trial" will ultimately see Snowden getting jail time while making his supporters very unhappy.


FAIR outcome it would not be under any moral code however it might be the legal outcome as fair and legal is not one and the same thing in this case.

That is how the concept of jury nullification came about in the first place to deal with situations like this after all.

Too sum up I am not sure at all that Mr. Snowden will be found guilty as you seems to be even if the government can prove he is indeed guilty of the charges level against him as he and the jury members have a higher duty then to the letter of laws that are being misused.

Quote:
Jury nullification
Jury nullification is a constitutional doctrine which allows juries to acquit criminal defendants who are technically guilty, but who do not deserve punishment. It occurs in a trial when a jury reaches a verdict contrary to the judge's instructions as to the law.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 09:19 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
A "fair trial" will ultimately see Snowden getting jail time while making his supporters very unhappy.


FAIR outcome it would not be under any moral code...


Who are you to make a pronouncement like that?

What do you think you are...some kind of god?




Quote:
however it might be the legal outcome as fair and legal is not one and the same thing in this case.


"Fair" is what we should be looking for...according to our law.

Quote:
That is how the concept of jury nullification came about in the first place to deal with situations like this after all.


So you are not looking for fair at all. You are looking for an acquittal no matter what. That is what I thought.

Quote:
Too sum up I am not sure at all that Mr. Snowden will be found guilty as you seems to be even if the government can prove he is indeed guilty of the charges level against him as he and the jury members have a higher duty then to the letter of laws that are being misused.


Like I said...you are not looking for a fair trial...you are looking for a rigged one.

Okay.

I prefer to go with a fair trial.



0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 09:47 am
@revelette2,
Hounding Snowden, bullying other countries, not showing an ounce of contrition. That sort of thing.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 09:50 am
@Moment-in-Time,
The criminal(s) who gave the order to illegally spy on people has yet to face charges. Glenn Greenwald is just doing what any responsible journalist would do, despite being bullied and intimidated by The Empire.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 09:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well, mit was assuming that a fair trial will land Snowden in jail... That's not presumption of guilt?

Do you want a fair trial for the guys in Gitmo, Frank?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 09:59 am
@Olivier5,
True; the presumption of innocence is no longer possible, since the government already charged Snowden with espionage. Under US law, that's a crime punishable by execution.

Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
The State has a right to sue its citizens, so that's not the issue. The point I'm trying to make is that MIT is assuming Snowden's guilt.
ehBeth
 
  5  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:08 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
A "fair trial" will ultimately see Snowden getting jail time


really

what happened to presumption of innocence until proven guilty?

or have you taken the roles of judge and jury upon yourself?

Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:16 am
@ehBeth,
and prosecutor...
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:32 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:

A fair trial would start with presumption of innocence, not guilt


Really you're just splitting hairs which I describe as semantic quibbling. There are trials in the US to determine the guilt or innocence of individuals and people often harbor strong feelings, pro and con, regarding the suspect on trial. The rule of law will determine a future Snowden trial; my personal feelings are unimportant, especially seeing as how this is merely a message forum where one expresses one's own opinion in response to another, while hopefully respecting each other in exchange.
blatham
 
  9  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:42 am
Personally, I'm hoping for a lot more treasonous bastards to rise up and blow the whistle as regards the behavior of the intelligence community and the military and the huge for-profit entities making bazillions who are trying to keep citizens stupid (uniformed, misinformed) about what they are up to.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2014 10:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Edward Snowden Charged With Espionage By US Government
from the and-off-we-go dept
This isn't a huge surprise, but the Washington Post is reporting that US federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden charging him with espionage under the Espionage Act, along with theft and conversion of government property -- and have asked Hong Kong authorities to detain him. Just this morning, we were discussing the Obama administration's war on whistleblowers, prosecuting six different whistleblowers under the Espionage Act, twice the number of all other presidential administrations combined. Now we're up to number seven apparently. Update: The complaint has been unsealed (also embedded below).

Did Snowden break the law? Possibly -- but charging him with espionage is ridiculous, just as it has been ridiculous in many of these cases. Snowden wasn't doing this to "aid the enemy" but to alert the American public to the things that the administration itself had been publicly misleading to downright untruthful about. His actions have kicked off an important discussion and debate over surveillance society and how far it has gone today. That's not espionage. If he was doing espionage, he would have sold those secrets off to a foreign power and lived a nice life somewhere else. To charge him with espionage is insane.

In terms of process, the Washington Post explains:
By filing a criminal complaint, prosecutors have a legal basis to make the request of the authorities in Hong Kong. Prosecutors now have 60 days to file an indictment, probably also under seal, and can then move to have Snowden extradited from Hong Kong for trial in the United States.

Snowden, however, can fight the U.S. effort to have him extradited in the courts in Hong Kong. Any court battle is likely to reach Hong Kong's highest court and could last many months, lawyers in the United States and Hong Kong said.
It also notes that while the US and Hong Kong have an extradition treaty, there is an exception for "political offenses."

While this certainly was not unexpected, it's still a disappointing move from the administration. The crackdown on whistleblowers does not make the US look strong. It makes our government look weak, petty and vindictive in the face of actual transparency. It's shameful.
 

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