39
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:16 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
I agree with your assessment on any damage Snowdem potentially could have caused, but in the real world, the EU countries are in no position to damage trade relations with the US. That will hurt them more than it would the US, and some of their countries are already suffering 20%+ unemployment.

From marketwatch.com.
Quote:
The U.S. unemployment rate continues to tick down, but employment woes of Europe are nowhere near over. According to figures released Tuesday by Eurostat, the statistical agency that measures the European nations, the U.S. and Japan, the unemployment rate in the euro area hit a record high in May, rising one-tenth of a percentage point to 12.2%, and increasing almost a full percentage point over the prior year. On Friday, the U.S. Department of Labor will report on employment for June, and economists polled by MarketWatch expect the unemployment rate to decline to 7.5% from 7.6%. 24/7 Wall St. reviewed employment data for the countries measured by Eurostat because they are primarily developed nations. While other countries have higher unemployment rates than the countries on this list, the residents of developed nations rely on services from their governments that don't exist in developing nations. Unlike most developing countries, government assistance becomes a costly burden when unemployment rises in developed countries.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  5  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Treason? I think we should give him thanks for informing us of the fact that our government is breaking the law by recording my private correspondence without a court order. We "the government" are trying to hang him for informing we citizens that our government is spying on us without a court order. These so called secrets are known by practicably every government in the world. The only ones kept in the dark are the ones most affected by these actions, the citizens of the US of A. He is indeed a political prisoner who will be railroaded by a bunch of federal prosecutators with unlimited funds in order to make the point that anyone who shares government "secrets", also known as covering ones ass will also be hung by their nuts. Wake up people!
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Terrorists (an interesting word but another subject) already mostly know this stuff if they're in the coffee or tea clatche of the in groups.
International relations? Probably many in those areas of relations know some of this, that they aren't trusted fully and probably zoned in on, and those that didn't expect it, long time allies, have every reason to be pissed off.

The damage to international relations is that we did this spying on our allies apparently sans ok by them, not that someone told. Where is your head, CI?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:28 pm
@RABEL222,
Wow Rabel I agree with you and even liked you post. The world must be coming to an shortly.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:40 pm
@RABEL222,
Spying on Americans started with GW Bush.

Quote:
George W. Bush Defends PRISM: 'I Put That Program In Place To Protect The Country'
The Huffington Post | By Luke Johnson
Posted: 07/01/2013 9:49 am EDT | Updated: 07/01/2013 3:50 pm EDT

PRISM began under Bush in 2007 and has continued under the Obama administration. The program allows the National Security Administration to collect internet and email data from the nation's biggest technology companies.


I don't totally trust Obama, but I've heard nothing negative about PRISM since Bush started it in 2007 - about any negative results.

As with some who have stated, "I have nothing to hide." They can record me all they want; it's pretty boring stuff.

I'm sure FB and other social media sites have more info than anybody realizes.

Cyber crime happens more often than people realize. They've gotten into bank accounts, social security, and other private information, and you're worried about the government's spying? Why?
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

If the United States were to just let this go...as some want the government to do...we would be committing national suicide.


To "betray" your government's classified information to an international audience, to me that is a traitor.

When Snowden is captured there is little chance of his being freed, at least not until he's had his trial. I call Snowden a traitor firstly because I believe this but also along with his father who spoke eloquently that his "son had betrayed the US government, therefore, he's a traitor." "My son," cited the father, "did not betray the American people."

But I disagree with the latter part of his statement. When Snowden revealed the machination by which the US monitored foreign calls, he hurt the American people.

However, once Snowden has his trial one should be able to make a more realistic assessment. BTW, most Republicans agree with Dems and the President on the Snowden scenario, with one or two even calling for the Guardian Unlimited Journalist Glenn Greenwald to be charged.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 04:57 pm
@RABEL222,
I almost gave you a thumbs up, Rabel.

Quote:
Wake up people!


There's much more than just this that the people have got to wake up to.

Quote:
The phrase 'war on terrorism' should always be used in quotes, cause there can't possibly be a war on terrorism, it's impossible. The reason is it's led by one of the worst terrorist states in the world, in fact it's led by the only state in the world which has been condemned by the highest international authorities for international terrorism, namely the World Court and Security Council, except that the US vetoed the resolution.

Noam Chomsky

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
He promised in writing to keep information he learns in his job confidential.


No individual is required to keep secret the illegal activities of others.

Quote:
He lied, and talked to our enemies.


Your governments constantly, incessantly lie. And they are the ones who are solely responsible for having created those enemies.

And still the sheeple provide their unflagging support.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
and how terrorists will now use other means of communication.


This is simple, CI, oh so simple. If you don't want terrorism, stop US governments from being, by huge margins, the largest terrorist group on the planet.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'll tell you that there's a huge difference between what Ellsberg revealed about the Vietnam War that has no comparison to Snowdon's revelations.


Snowden's revelations illustrate that the US has not changed from being a major criminal/terrorist enterprise one iota, despite Revelette's protestations to the contrary.

Quote:
The Vietnam War was started on false accusations in the Gulf of Tonkin which gave Johnson the authority to start that war.


Notice that no one wants to touch these truths with a ten foot pole, CI. Why do you figure that is?

The illegal invasion of Afghanistan was predicated on lies just as the illegal Iraq invasion was. I do believe that the US has always launched all their illegal invasions based on lies. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

When is it going to sink into your heads that these actions against the US will never end until the US stops its terrorism, its wanton abuse of the poor of the world? Behold the power of the US propaganda system.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:27 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
most Republicans agree with Dems and the President on the Snowden scenario, with one or two even calling for the Guardian Unlimited Journalist Glenn Greenwald to be charged.


But not the NYT or the Washington Post or any of the other US journalists who have leaked in the past, eh, MIT?

I'm surprised that you find it surprising that a bunch of war criminals and terrorists don't want their crimes exposed.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  6  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:29 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

"Spying on Americans en masse," to which I say it doesn't matter to me; whatever it takes to safeguard America is fine with me. ... If the US government's monitoring all calls will prevent another 9/11, that is OK with me.

We will never agree on this point. On the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg when 50,000 Americans gave their lives to try to forge a country that was just slightly more just than what it had been, I will never sign away my constitutional freedoms for an illusion of security. So what are you getting for giving up all your freedoms? Through May, four citizens have been killed by terrorists (in Boston). Eleven citizens have been killed by toddlers wielding hand guns in the same time period. In 2011, there were 32,376 deaths in auto accidents. For the same year, there were 32,163 deaths due to guns. If you really wanted the government to protect you, why don't you demand the ban of cars or guns? We Americans talk a big game. "Give me liberty or give me death!" We refuse to wear motorcycle helmets, drive 55, and wear seatbeats when there is hard evidence that these will each save thousands of lives. When the government tries to mandate rules for health insurance or energy conservation or reasonable gun control, there are protests in the street. But when terrorists offer the slightest threat, we are ready to throw away our rights. Not only are you willing to do "whatever it takes", to give up your basic constitutional rights to reduce those four deaths to maybe two, you are willing to give up mine. Mine aren't for sale for a miniscule amount of security or the illusion of safety. They just aren't and even if you want to give up yours, you can't give up mine.

Moment-in-Time wrote:
Engineer, my husband and I are two Americans who simply do not care if we are spied on; we don't have anything to hide....we are transparent.

I've asked this question a couple of times and I guess you've answered it here. If an NSA agent knocked on your door and said "Hello sir. I would like all your Internet traffic and information on all of your calls to promote national security. Please turn it over." Would you be ok with that? You're saying "yes, let me get it for you." I'll say "my information will not help you but if you want it you will have to have a warrant." That is what is happening today except the NSA is not being polite enough to knock and ask. When we lose the right to tell our government no, the terrorists have won. Mobs are fighting in Egypt right now for what you are willing to throw away. I object not because I don't love my country, but because I do.

Every single claim you have stated against Snowden can be equally said about Ellsberg, the pledge of confidentiality, the betrayal of government, going directly against his superiors, etc. The reaction to him was pretty much exactly the same as the reaction on this thread. Why is he a hero and Snowden a traitor? Explain the difference to me. I think they are both heroes.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:35 pm
@engineer,
If all your security is illusion, what harm has the NSA done to you? What did you really give up? Please be succinct.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth."

H. L. Mencken
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:38 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I think they are both heroes.


Snowden may be a lot of things...but "hero" is not one of them. He may not be a traitor (a jury has to decide that)...but he has acknowledged he broke his vows and the laws of the United States.

He is an accused criminal...who should stand trial.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
If all your security is illusion, what harm has the NSA done to you? What did you really give up? Please be succinct.


The chance to mouth,

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

without illustrating what an incredible hypocrite you are.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:42 pm
My family lived through the time of Hoover. It's hard for me to post about it.
Even High Seas pushed me to go through the Freedom of Info stuff again, that more was known and she considered my father a hero. (High Seas is waaaaaaaaaay to the right of me.)
One blackened set of pages after I enquired did me in.
My father's life was ruined when some guy under him passed a photo around at a party in NYC.
Of the bikini bomb test, I assume.

I can understand all sides of that, but not the decimation of my father's life (long story). A long time ago, but I remember.


Hoover, of course, is a story unto himself and our history.

Don't ******* trust who is in charge because that is how it is.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
but he has acknowledged he broke his vows and the laws of the United States.


No one has to remain married to lawbreakers, Frank.

" the laws of the United States" - that's funny.

"He is an accused criminal" accused by other criminals, war criminals and terrorists.

When you describe the whole truth, it kinda loses its oomph, doesn't it, Frank?

"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

Can you provide me with a reasonable explanation for this, Frank?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:46 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
but he has acknowledged he broke his vows and the laws of the United States.


No one has to remain married to lawbreakers, Frank.

" the laws of the United States" - that's funny.

"He is an accused criminal" accused by other criminals, war criminals and terrorists.

When you describe the whole truth, it kinda loses its oomph, doesn't it, Frank?

"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

Can you provide me with a reasonable explanation for this, Frank?


Drunk
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jul, 2013 05:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Precisely how I figured you would respond, Frank.

I have to let you know that I am shocked by this chickenshit behavior from the guy who promised up and down, forward and back, that he would always be there to address the issues.
 

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